Hi Mathis

@Another User said:

Other than that: welcome to the idiosynchratic world of VSL. This discussion about 2nd violins is active since the beginning of VSL time.

I use only Special edition and since there are no legato Appasionatas and I don't particular like the sound of the Appasionatas I assign the Appasionata violins to Violins 1 and legato violins to Violins 2. This is enough for me at the moment to create a convincing violins unison.

Just so I'm clear, you use Special Edition strings as one section, and Appassionata as the other section? If I understand correctly, I'll be doing the same, but with the Symphonic Cube strings instead of your SE strings.

Aside from my mild discontentment with VSL's policy towards Symphonic Cube users requiring two separate Violin section, I thought I had understood the technical make-up of the libraries - now I'm not so sure.

Jules

apologies if this was not clear enough ... mathis suggested you would probably need only appass violins extended and i wanted just to point out for appassionata there is only the complete extended _library_ available (violins, violas, celli, double bass) and not the extended content for one single _instrument_ only (like it would be possible eg. for chamber strings)
christian

No worries Christian - all clear now.

Regards

Jules

Wouldn't it be possible to just use the same strings two times but one time just a half tone pitched up (and of course then transposed one half tone down) ?

I think only a half tone wouldn't cost too much sound-quality-wise and that way you could just use the same library for two sections without getting any phasing-problems.

I'm sure that's possible LazyPeon. Whether it should really be necessary is a different matter.

I've used the violins from East West's QL Platinum XP library so far, but I don't think that should be necessary either.

Jules

I do not like the insipid whining tone of this thread.

First of all the orchestral strings can be used for first and second violins, just not for 1st and 2nd that come together on a single line. So it is not that big a deal. Unless you are idiotic enough to write the same notes for first and second constantly. Do you do that? If you do, you deserve to have all your samples taken away and should be in solitary confinement at Alcatraz for a month.

Secondly, you could use chamber strings on second. if that is not acceptable because you are a twit, you could do what the whole point of Appassionata was - to add even more sounds to the huge, existing library of string sounds. Now you have three different ensembles, totally different samples. Appassionata should be used for first violins anyway, since they are the best sampled violins in existence and anyone who does not have them is a fool.

What you want is total perfection, instantly. You are NOT going to get it in this universe. So stop snivelling about it. And BTW I am so sorry you spent some money. Do you have any idea of how much money I have spent on equipment and samples? And am I here writing posts whining like yours about it? NO! I may be spiralling downqard into debt, misery and ultimate destruction, but am I whining like you? NO! Don't come to me with these stories! [8o|]

Hey William,

Whining or ranting, what's to choose?

Ranting, of course. I am surprised you ask.

BTW I have no respect for people who are too cowardly to rant. Come on!! I am waiting for you cowards. Try me.

Though I have complete respect for those who go ballistic. Angelo? Any comments?

The worst thing - as Orson Welles put it - is indifference.

@William said:

The worst thing - as Orson Welles put it - is indifference.

So is tact. [*-)]

Tact?

What's that? Ask Bernard Herrmann.

You would be pulling back a stump, sucker.

You want tact? Go to Sesame Street. But don't come whining to me.

Come on!

I'm waiting! I want some tact. I so need it. Because I am oh so sensitive, and get so upset by all those mean people out there. You are so mean, and I just wish you could be... sniff... a little more... sniff... tactful... [:'(]

Just like all the people you will meet, -you precious little tact-desiring people - in your future careers...

Can you say "Rip Me A New Asshole?" [6]

Just feeding some more solutions in here that were already discussed with older VSL versions and are still a possible solution to new ones. Just take a look at this thread and the all the other threads I linked there in my post so you can some more impressions about possible solutions:
http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=4602

The only thing that could be added here, that the new VSL VI's don't allow the user easily to adjust sample pitch like in a sampler (or do they? I actually don't know but I would be surprised if they do). Meaning to involve program re-programming once for samplers (pitch everything up or down and fill in the holes with a stretched version of the lowest/highest sample). So the approach with doubling a line with a wholetone higher pitched variant of the same sample set would not apply so easily with the VIs, but you could recaculate the BPM of the piece for the piece to be recorded a wholetone deeper or higher, and then pitch it back the wholetone to the desired pitch in your audio editor. For everything else I strongly recommend reading the threads and trying to understand the reasoning of both sides.

All the best,
PolarBear

@William said:

I do not like the insipid whining tone of this thread.

First of all the orchestral strings can be used for first and second violins, just not for 1st and 2nd that come together on a single line. So it is not that big a deal. Unless you are idiotic enough to write the same notes for first and second constantly. Do you do that? If you do, you deserve to have all your samples taken away and should be in solitary confinement at Alcatraz for a month.

Secondly, you could use chamber strings on second. if that is not acceptable because you are a twit, you could do what the whole point of Appassionata was - to add even more sounds to the huge, existing library of string sounds. Now you have three different ensembles, totally different samples. Appassionata should be used for first violins anyway, since they are the best sampled violins in existence and anyone who does not have them is a fool.

What you want is total perfection, instantly. You are NOT going to get it in this universe. So stop snivelling about it. And BTW I am so sorry you spent some money. Do you have any idea of how much money I have spent on equipment and samples? And am I here writing posts whining like yours about it? NO! I may be spiralling downqard into debt, misery and ultimate destruction, but am I whining like you? NO! Don't come to me with these stories! [8o|]

Nice attitude William. I'm glad we have a self proclaimed dictator of appropriate posts on the forum.

Clearly you're from the ranting school of posting, which I have no problem with, although your anger surprises me a little. What you declare is insipid and whining , others might find tactful and polite. If you can't deal with that, perhaps best to stay out of other people's threads.

I don't expect perfection. But I do expect to be given the right to complain when I believe something is not done right. How I complain, is my perogative, not yours.

I hope that's direct enough for you

Jules

Hi Polarbear.

Many thanks for the response.

You're right, there are workarounds to the lack of Second Violins, and I have searched the forums and tried some of them. The Chamber Strings section I personally don't find quite right in an orchestral context, although I have used it, and it's certainly better than nothing. I haven't tried pitching other sections up or down and retuning, and don't even know if this is possible with the VI Player.

I only installed the Appassionata Strings yesterday, and I'm very much hoping that these are the solution for big unison lines and will make other workarounds unnecessary. The good people at VSL have told me that they were recorded for exactly this purpose.

In case I've been misunderstood, my original point is that, given that people are looking for workarounds for Second Violins, that seems to suggest, there's a shortfall in the Symphonic Cube. If that's accepted, it might have been nice if Symphonic Cube owners were offered some kind of incentive to purchase this upgrade and complete the orchestra.

Thanks again for your help Polarbear.

Jules

I really don't want 2nd Violins for various reasons:

1) The cost of duplicating the recordings (passed on to the customer).
2) The extra disc space that it would all take.
3) A gazillion more articulations to hunt through.

However, I would imagine that a 2nd Violin of the Solo Strings could be very handy for some people. I would certainly like more "2nds" for some Woodwind and Brass instruments. Orchestral violins though is unnecessary, because there are so many layering possibilities and articulations that avoiding phasing is easy, without going to any trouble with pitch shifting.

DG

Jules, you'll be happy with the Appasionatas, don't worry.

In my setup I need to layer them because the Appasionata "teasers" which are in Special Edition come only with a sus and a staccato articulation. So to fill the legato gap in a line I double this sus patch with the normal violin legato. Works well enough for me, at this moment.

And Daryl has good points as well.

Thanks for the helpful posts guys.

I'm no bigshot on orchestral arrangements, so perhaps there's some degree of inexperience at play here, but when working with the East West Symphonic Orchestra, I found it very effective to double up certain legato passages with both 1st and 2nd Violins, when one needed a theme or top-line to come through really strongly in unison. I was just a little surprised when I couldn't do the same with the Vienna Instrument. After all, an orchestra has two violin sections and ocassionally they play the same part.

All of that said, the Appassionata Strings sound superb - I tested them this morning. Even on their own, they provide an extremely full and lush sound, and obviously could be layered with the Orchestral Violins if one wanted two violin sections playing together but perhaps mixed slightly differently. I'm well pleased.

It doesn't alter my initial point that, in the absence of two violin sections in the Symphonic Cube, I personally think it would have been a constructive gesture for VSL to offer SC owners an incentive to buy the Appassionata Strings.

Thanks again

Jules

No, you're not being inexperienced by doubling up 1sts and 2nds. This is very common, both at the unison and the octave. What you can do is just ad a little chamber or solo to the 2nds (and/or 1sts) and ride the volume up and down, alter the timing slightly, both to give a more live feel, and to make each section more independent.

FWIW never copy and paste from 1st to 2nd violins. Always program from scratch. this way it is more likely that you will avoid any phasing, even with the same patches.

DG

As to being fair, the App violins were originally a free download, so I certainly can't complain that I've been treated unfairly.

DG