I kinda suspect that nowadays 2gigs just doesn't cut it anymore for serious audio production. And I also think that the speed of the processor plays a big role in things as apps like VSL push the limits of technology.

Here's an update from my tests:

It appears as if VSL VI runs fine by itself, but when I throw in some healthy dose of Kontakt 2, then the clicks and pops appear. I'm actually not even sure anymore who is doing the clicking and popping, wheather it's VSL VI or Kontakt 2 when VSL VI is present (soloing the tracks makes the clicks and pops go away so that doesn't help determine who is at fault).

Either way, there seems to be some sort of conflict between VSL VI and Kontakt 2 as they both vie for the hard drive on which both sets of samples are on. I tried to move the VSL SE files to my system drive and point the VSL Directory utility to it, but this actually made the problem worse.

Switching from 48khz to 44.1 doesn't really affect things a whole lot, and neither does increasing the audio buffer.

The CPU doesn't appear to affect things either, in the sense that the clicks and pops simply appear when both Kontakt 2 and VSL VI are present in the same Logic sequence, regardless of how small the instruments loaded are or if it's just one instance of each.

I suspect that on faster machines, the adverse effects might be minimized to the point to where they are not perceptible....could this be because of faster busses, or a different SATA chip?

Either way, I seem to have isolated the culprit to some conflict between VSL VI and Kontakt 2

Christofori, sorry for the long delay in responding to your email.
I've done some different tests (with VI SE) with different drive configurations, and I can say that there is no real difference in performance.
Again, my computer is a Mac Pro with 9GB RAM.

I tried putting the VI samples on a singe 500GB SATA2 drive, a Raid of 2 of those drives, and a 10,000 rpm Western Digital SATA drive. All performed the same. I thought that VI might perform better on the 10,000 rpm drive, since my *gasp* EWQLSO performs better on my PC with that drive.

I think the bottom line is that many of us are loading up our Macs with a bunch of Ram, and trying to coax our machines into accessing more that the OS or our host sequencers will allow in a stable manner. I've tried the various methods of loading samples in different programs, inside and outside the sequencer, but this tends to make things less stable. I think perhaps Digital Performer is problematic in this type of situation as well.

The most dissapointing thing is that I have to run all my VI SE instruments on a single computer, and yet I can only use a fraction of them at one time. Ideally I would be able to create a sketch orchestra (very basic instruments), but I'm ending up relying on my QL instruments, since they seem to be more stable running in Kontakt.

Mark


Mark[/quote]
Mark, I have X.4.9 but do not use DP. I use LP 7.2.3. I predict your installation will not work if the way VSL VI handles its heavy processing load conflicts with the other hard drives competing for ram. I need to look at Herb's examples of the Mac setups for stress testing if they had more than 2 internal hard drives. Unfortunately, I thought only two Mac setups were mentioned and one was an iMac.
I have a question. When you have multiple internal SATA drives on one computer, does the operating system switch its attention from one drive to another at times feeding the RAM so that one drive cannot monopolize the system and this is causing sound drops and clicks and pops? In other words, could the problem be similar to the firewire clogging problem I experienced? If you had one internal SATA drive versus multiple ones would that make the problem go away? Does the fact I have the new VSL VI on an external USB or firewire while I have the Pro edition VSL, Colossus, and EW Symphonic Orchestra Platinum on an internal SATA identify the location of the conflict since my system is working? Would the problem others are having relate to multiple internal harddrives not counting the system hard drive? Would the VSL VI libraries on an isolated firewire bus and not on the internal hard drives solve the problem? An external firewire is not that expensive. This is an important question to me as I contemplate a new system. All I am saying is that I had the problem too prior to eliminating sharing of firewire resources with anything but VSL VI. Forgive me if my questions seem foolish as I am trying to learn to avoid these unpleasant experiences. I had wanted to upgrade to a Mac 3.0 ghz quadcore pro and put all my libraries on one computer with separate hard drives for each section and max out the ram at 16 gb. But it seems that may not work based on what I am reading. I.E. Not all ram is accessible, multiple hardrives may be a probelm, etc. Thanks. [*-)][/quote]

Here are my experiences relevant to this discussion. I tend to instantiate multiple VI instruments in Logic, usually with a single patch loaded in each one. I consistently get the click/pop problems - that is, they don't go away after some playback activity, as they have for others who have posted here.

The pops/clicks arise pretty consistently when I instantiate more than 3 or 4 VI plugins, though not if I load a single plugin and stuff it 3 or 4 patches. I've come to accept that if I want more than 3 VI instances, I have to bounce my tracks. (Bouncing makes the artifacts disappear.)

My disk activity and CPU activity meters in Logic indicate fairly low levels of activity, so it doesn't seem like hard drive speed is the issue. I have my Appassionata sounds on a separate fast drive. (In one case I tried moving some of the sounds to yet another drive, to no effect.)

Running a Mac G4 1.24 Dual under OSX 10.4.9, 1.75 gigs RAM, Logic 7.1.1, and exclusively using Appassionata Strings right now.

Hi Michael,

Please note that our system requirements of an Apple G4 1 GHz with 1 GB RAM represent the absolute minimum system performance to run one single instance of the Vienna Instruments on its own with no other plugins involved!

This is why, considering your current setup, 3 or 4 instances of the Vienna Instruments might very well tax your system beyond its limits.

Best, Marnix

Just wanted to add my name to the list of users having this problem. I get dropouts in the sound at pretty regular intervals. They don't go away no matter how long I use the instruments for or how many times I play the same note. They occur even if I only have one instance running only one patch. I'm using the built-in audio rather than an external soundcard and I've tried putting the VI data on an external FW800 drive and the internal one - it makes no difference in either case. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Martin

mosso, i'm confused now ... or i missed something .. gigastudio orchstra on a mac?
christian

Sorry I guess my profile should be clearer... [:O]ops:

I have a slave PC (Windows XP SP2) that I'm using to run GS, GVI and VI. I was hoping to keep the PC for the Giga libraries only and use the MacBook Pro for VI. Problems with VI occur only on the Mac.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Martin

Mosso:

Have you tried increasing the I/O Buffer Size in Logic's Preferences? (Logic/Preferences/Audio/Drivers) Using a buffer of 512k or 1024k I get no pops and clicks on my G5 (after the first plaback run) - - although it may also help that I am using a MOTU PCI 424/2408 audio interface rather than built-in audio.

mosso, i'd not recommend to have the sample data on the internal drive at all ... FW800 should work fairly well (we also used a macBook Pro with a fireface 400 for some demos and actually FW400 drives for sample data)

is there anything else connected via firewire, something running besides logic and/or EXS instruments in the game?
christian

Thanks Christian & Steve.

There's nothing else plugged into the Mac other than my USB keyboard (CME UF[H], the XSkey and ViennaKey on a hub, and the DVI out for a second monitor. There are no other programs running (except the ones that run at startup - Finder and Dashboard). I get the dropouts using standalone mode too, but they are less regular.

I'm on the road at the moment so I'll try playing around with the buffer size when I get back to the studio, and then I'll report back with my findings.

Thanks again for your help!

Martin

@Maya said:

Hi all,

I posted all KNOWN reasons, why clicks and pops might occur on Mac, regarding unknown problems I already said:

However this might take a while since the problems occur randomly.

Best,

Maya

Hi Vsl´lers,

if you ever come to Munich feel free to drop by. There is no randomness to this problem on all 3 Macs (G5DP2, MacPro and MacBookPro) here. Interfaces are Apogee Ensemble, m-Audio and Fireface 800. Systemversions are 10.4.9 and 10.4.6.

So I can provide some empirical crosssection......

I guess everybody is waiting for the 64bit 128 gig Ram machine? (Only takes a week to boot.....)

All the best,

Jochen

I've been reading this thread with interest, and learnt a bit.

It's also been my experience in life that experts can occasionally miss the obvious as they tend to think at a more complex level for the root of a problem, or a collection of problems that together have a cumilative effect?

So, the basic questions i ask at this point, based on the problems presented, are:

Buffer size?
We all have different ways of working, and differing setups. And as i guess we all know, sometimes the rage in the machine can produce differing results based on the same setups.

Conflicting Buffer rates?
I've had this one before, and juggled rates until they matched, and i could input with tolerable latency, and still get relatively clean playback.

Data timing issues?
Does one stream of data hit the DAW at a faster rate than another? That is, does the stream rate differ between sampler player types according to the usual HD in/out rate, processor load, or the speed of the specific sampler data request?

Two different sampler types calling samples from the same HD?
I've done this one too, and had to change things around until everything was relatively happy, including separating libraries onto individual HD's, not just different volumes and partitions.

Differing Sample Data pre-buffer sizes?
If the VI has a fixed buffer, and Kontakt has a user designated buffer option, are the two matched?

And given there are some users who don't have problems, i wonder if the issues are not VI or Kontakt related at all, but a driver conflict, or something as specific as HD Volume sizes, partition sizes, partition order,etc...

How many of you expert chaps run a small, fast, clean system drive, and dump all the other stuff on extra HD Internal/External IDE/SATA etc...., with the same attention to partition order,size, etc..

And how many with Macs are still running early Tiger or Panther OS's versus the latest updates? How many with older OSX's are having problems?

I'd be interested to hear from those who don't have issues, just how they set all this stuff up, including partition size, order, etc...


Alex.

Hey all,

I finally got a chance to muck around with my buffer settings and I finally got the VI to work without any problems by setting the buffer to 1028. So, thanks for all the help everyone! Just one more question (for now)...

Any increase in the time delay between pressing the key and the note sounding caused by raising the buffer seems to be very small and manageable for the live playing of notes, but this setting seems quite high. On my PC slave the buffer is set to 256 and seems happy, so why does it need to be so high on the Mac, which is a newer (and faster) machine? Is it because I'm using the internal soundcard?

Once again, thanks!

Martin

Adding my 2 Cents to this discussion. I am able to load almost 3GB of VI samples into Logic 7.2.3. I've also combined EXS 24 samples, converted Giga samles and various "powered by NI samples" (usually with some version of Kontakt player or Kontakt player 2) mixed with VI sammples up to about 3 GB. Clicks and pops sometimes occur when I first attempt playback. After that they do not occur. Buffer setting is either 512 or 1024k. As noted below, my audio interface is a MOTU 2408 mk3.

I suspect that many problems regarding this issue have to do with which audio interface and drivers one is using. The reason I suspect this is that this seems the one significant variable in different users differing experiences. This would explain why people with some audio interfaces and drivers consistently report problems while people with other audio interfaces and drivers report few or no problems.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that at U.S. firms, emotion is not allowed. If it is true in some firms, analysis usually reveals that the boss gets to express his or her emotions while everyone else kowtows. This usually has the effect of stifling creativity and imagination among employees.

My wife, an architect, is a senior member of large and innovative architectural and design firm. As one might imagine in a firm with 200 architects, designers, renderers, model makers, etc., everyone has a lot of opinions - - and emotions get expressed every day. The organizatioon of this company is designed to allow for spontaneous repsonses. It does not happen that the boss says X and all emplyoyees pretend that think that X is great, rather everyone is encouraged to say what they think whether they are in agreement, have some criticisms or think that X is absolutely the worst idea they've ever heard of. . Out of such varying responses and suggestions, intelligent creative discussion arises. Creativity is encouraged by mutual trust, not by fear of punishment or by stifling thought, opinion or emotion.