I agree with everything you're saying, Alex. The main danger is when people use standard NFMs that only go down to about 60Hz, causing them to miss things like vocal pops and piano hammer thuds.

Rob, it's actually the *mudrange* rather than the midrange. [[:)]] The muddy area is around 300Hz - the upper bass range.

I should have kept my mouth shut, because I don't mean to make you hate your speakers. [[:)]] What starts my compulsive blathering every time the subject of those speakers comes up is that the whole episode I described was very unpleasant, and it doesn't take much to conjure it up again. I had recruited two other people (both professional engineers) to do a round-up of small powered NFMs, and a couple of companies that didn't have the best speakers in our opinion were furious.

How could we criticize the work of Floyd Toole (who designed the LSR28p)?! Well, obviously he knows what he's doing, but we still had to report what we heard.

It was really ugly.

I mean the uproar was ugly, not the sound. [:)]

Totally understand Nick. If you had a budget of $1000-1800 for a new monitor system - what would be the pick? Should I be looking at 5.1 system?


Rob

I assume you don't have a power amp, right?

Well, I haven't heard the ADAMs or listened to the current crop, which includes the small ATCs. What I can say is that there seem to be a couple of categories. One would include Genelec, Dynaudio, and Macke. They all have a rather bright, precise sound, and they all sound like speakers, if that makes sense - you're always aware that the sound is coming from a box rather than being in the room. I don't really know how to put it any other way; my guess is that it has to do with their dynamic response, not their transient response or dispersion.

That is not at all to say they're bad or that they have an exaggerated high end ("bright"). Actually, I wouldn't mind having a pair, since it's very easy to hear reverbs and other details on them. A few years ago I personally liked the Dynaudios the best of the three, but then that was a few years ago and this is totally subjective. Also, the three don't sound the same - it's just a category.

The other category is speakers that don't fall into that category. [:)] I'd put your LSR28ps in this group, as well as my Blue Skys, the KRKs, and some others.

Right now I'm very happy with the Blue Sky System One. It's not necessarily the absolute best there is at any price, but it's really good. Its only flaw is a slight dip around 1.5kHz, but it's slight and easy to work around (all speakers have flaws); I have no other complaints about anything else - imaging, freq response, overall sound, fatigue inducement, etc. There aren't too many other monitors around that sound nice *and* are good to work on - it seems to be one or the other.

I don't want to say "buy this," though, because I haven't gone out and listened to what's around these days. My opinion is probably five years out of date.

Wow Nick - many thanks for all the information. Thanks


Rob

Hi there!
We bought a pair of Dynaudio Air 20 two months ago and we love them! We listened to a lot of monitors before we decided to buy the Airs and I can say that they are quite neutral, which means: no oversized bass or too shiny treble, very honest mids and we are able to look "into the mix" now so we got some very satisfying results.
Another interesting feature is: they work completely digital and are connected to the interface via AES/EBU so there's no loss on the way to the speakers. We tried the analog inputs(optional) but the digital inputs are way better.

Holger

I've used Dynaudio BM15s for 7 yeaars and never regreted this investment. I do pro mastering and mixing and these monitors are a marvelous piece of engineering. As for Genelecs, I would rank them very low and would never ever reccomend them to anyone. They sound far too good and tricks the user into thinking what he/she is listening to is good, while in fact it's far from. The top is way too open and airy, and the bottom even sounds like there is compression going on, resulting in a muddy and undefined sound in your mixes, especially the bottom end comes out poor in mixes done on the Genelecs. I say this from my experience over the years getting mixes in for mastering, and also from composing and (attempting) mixing on them. I speak of the 1032As especially, which many places are seen as industry standard monitors. My advice, dont touch them with a 10 foot pole if you want to deliver mixes that needs to work well in real life applications. Ofcourse, everyone can learn their monitoring system so well that they can work around their shortcommings, but why make it harder for yourself from the get-go? I do know quite a few composers who prefer the Gens for this very reason, that they give instant gratification when composing as things tend to sound pretty good right out the box.

One Genelec model I really dig though is the 1037 which I own a pair of. If the size of your room is moderate, these 15" inch speakers do very well in a midfield position. These might be out of your budget range though, but maybe u can find some used ones.

My advice is to go for the fantastic Adam or Dynaudio speakers. You will never regret it.

@Another User said:

they work completely digital and are connected to the interface via AES/EBU so there's no loss on the way to the speakers. We tried the analog inputs(optional) but the digital inputs are way better.

Well, that means that you like their D/A converters better than the ones on whatever's feeding the monitors.

I'm being a little picky, but the next step is tempting but false: that *any* D/A converter in a speaker is better than one at the other end of some cables due to loss on the way there. There's absolutely nothing wrong with running signals through decent wire, in my opinion, and my guess is that you could probably find better D/As on the planet that would sound still better going over good cables!

More importantly, you could probably find speakers with crap D/As in them that don't sound very good. That's just in general - I believe Roland had some speakers with built-in D/As, and I'm not dissing them at all, in fact I haven't even heard them. And there must be others.

Having said that, different cables really do have an affect on the sound. But that's a separate issue.

Well, I don't know that I'd go as far, but in all honesty I agree with those criticisms of the little Genelecs. I've found the same - they make everything sound good. And I find it hard to know what things sound like on them. I remember a session that a friend was engineering, and started EQ-ing a snare on them. Believe it or not, when he switched to the NS-10s it was immediately obvious what that snare sounded like. Before that it was really hard to tell.

But I do respect them. They're certainly not bad speakers, they just have a certain kind of sound. Again, it's very easy to hear reverbs and spaces on them, and a lot of very good engineers swear by them.

I just purchased a pair of Adam A-7's... they're superb. A small footprint, I use them in conjunction with my Macke HR824's. Highest recommendation.

My vote is for Event Studio Precision 8's. I've used them for about six months now and couldn't be happier.

you can check them out here

Found an incredible deal on the matching sub for my JBL's LSR28P's. Wow - I really love it. Nice to be able to crossover at about 100 khz (that duty is now NOT with the references.


Rob

@Rob Elliot said:

Nice to be able to crossover at about 100 khz

[:D] ... a crossover at 100 kHz will make the bats cry! [;)]

@Rob Elliot said:

Nice to be able to crossover at about 100 khz

[:D] ... a crossover at 100 kHz will make the bats cry! [;)]


OK, I'll experiment with it [:D] - Dietz - isn't THX spec'd at 80 hz crossover for subs?


Rob

Rob read agin - Khz and Hz. [[;)]]

As for crossing at 100Hz, imo this is a bit high and you should consider going down to around 70-80Hz, or you might end up mixing towards what will be a very non-representive result on normal speakers. It all depends on your monitors, room and setup ofcourse.

@Vagn Luv said:

Rob read agin - Khz and Hz. [[;)]]

As for crossing at 100Hz, imo this is a bit high and you should consider going down to around 70-80Hz, or you might end up mixing towards what will be a very non-representive result on normal speakers. It all depends on your monitors, room and setup ofcourse.

What is a "K" amongst friends??? [:O]ops:


Bats AND Dogs would die [[:|]] Have it set up at 80 hz and sounds great.


Rob

I'm sure most of you know this but I'll say this to provide perspective:

Consumer systems are typically crossed over at 120 Hz. This will obviously play into imaging, etc., but if you have a consumer setup for surround (like me) with 3 1/2" satallites you don't have the option for lower mid-bass in the smaller speakers.

Clark

I have an old Quart 310 subwoofer. A what? I think it was a German brand.

How do I know what the crossover point is? The frequency response on the back says 25-150 Hz.

This sub needs a separate amp. But could I use them with powered Adams a-7? How would I do this?

Thanks.

Audiophile challenged,
Jay

Remember to budget a little for acoustic room treatment. You'll get truer mixes with $1,500 speakers and $1,500 room treatment than you will with $4,000 speakers and bare walls. It's one of those non-sexy things that we hate to spend money on, but appreciate once it's there. It's my next weekend project.

Jay, I have an M&K sub that also accepts a powered in only. I have an old Alesis amp that I use just to drive this subwoofer. There's probably a simple way to convert it to a line in, but I've never gotten around to doing it. Of course this is done for a hi-fi amp to drive satellite speakers through a stereo power amp out when the receiver doesn;t have a sub output. Modern hi-fi receivers always have a line-level sub out, so you rarely see this type of sub anymore. The ADAM A7 has a low freq shelf control so you'll be able to roll off the lows for proper bass management.

I have the M&K sub (12") on my hi-fi setup, not the studio. I plan on getting an ADAM Sub10 for the studio after I buy a third S2A to complete my front speakers. Rear speakers will be old Alesis Monitor Ones for now. Surround monitoring through the surround card in my DM-3200 console.