First of all, I get a bit worried when I hear people staring to "rule out" some things, such as certain dynamics or types of vibrato etc. In my view this product would be far too important to become limited in any way if it's not absolutely necessary.

For example, if FF or a very heavy vibrato is needed, why should one not be able to achieve this? Seems to me this is one of the (if not the) major points of the VI flexibility and controllability - to be able to achieve pretty much whatever sound you like.

Just look at what is problematic to achieve with the current VSL Violins, and you will pretty much know what most of us seem to hope for in the Epic ones. I don't think one thing has to rule out another...you can have a warm bottom and yet have silky air, you can have vibrato and yet be light and you can have mp, mf and ff alike...and with the new VI concept this flexibility betwen many alternatives is possible perhaps more than ever.

On the subject of sections, I must confess that I also find the 1st and 2nd Violin concept tempting. With the original VSL Violins, one can always invest in the Chamber Strings for smaller section sounds (divisi etc) if one thinks it's important. However, no such option would exist if the Epic Violins are made as one single large section as I doubt that the Chamber Strings would fit this task.

Like many pointed out already, the Epic Violins would arguably for many be one of the most important VSL instrument releases in a long time (with the exception of the VI concept of course), but I also believe Herb and the team realises this...or else he would not have asked us our opinions in this manner. This is of course a fantastic opportunity for all to give their views, and I'm sure it's immensly appreciated by all that Herb takes his time to listen to us.

IMO, if the Epic Violins turn out well, then there is no limit for the potential. Follow-up products like Epic Violas, Epic Cellos, Epic Basses and in the end perhaps even a complete Epic Strings package containing the lot could prove to be extremely popular, since people would probably after having Epic Violins feel the need to upgrade the rest of their string sections to the "Epic sound".

Again, at risk of being completely out of line in suggesting this, an idea occured to me:

After all the talk about "Epic" and comparisons to the Epic Horn instrument, how about bringing in the same person VSL used on Epic Horns to consult on the Epic Violins...namely Thomas J?

I don't know about the others here, but I for one was extremely happy with the way the Epic Horns turned out and I would have full confidence in Thomas and his views what an Epic Violins library should sound like.

I'm not saying I don't have full confidence for Herb and the VSL team as well, it just seems to me that they brought Thomas in for assisting on an Epic library once before and the result (at least IMO) was excellent. It also seems to me that what most of us wish for in the Epic Violins is something that is "right up Thomas' alley" so to speak.

Sorry, if I'm completely out of line with this, but I'm just toying with the thought that's all.

R

All the points here are valid AFAIC. However, I don't think 3 days of recording will be enough time to cover it.

In terms of an example of silky,smooth, romantic, filmic,JB, strings - ummmm....

I'll think of something.

Herb -

Getting a feeling for how IMPORTANT this new library is to your customer base?? [:)]

Without divulging proprietary intel - can you make comment on the ideas / requests presented herewith.

Many thanks.


Rob

What ever Herb will come up with will sound great, and I'll be more that happy to have that Epic Strings as part of my library.

But the way I see it, the ONLY WAY, we will ever get totall satifaction on this issue is the day some of the more important expression features such as vibrato will work hand in hand with the software, similar to "Universal Mode".

Herb,

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. But don't worry, I don't expect an invitation to Vienna! [:O]

@William said:

Don't assume what I have done or what I know.

I am tired of this arrogant attitude. Did I insult you? then why do you insult me?

I am sick of this shit.

William, no need to be defensive. When a person says it's very difficult to get a good string sound, I have to assume they haven't done it much. If that's not what you were saying, I apologize for offending you.

I haven't been to a movie yet where I felt like they were unable to get a "great string sound" [;)]

TH

The stuff produced in this three days will be a freebee for our Pro's, as announced.
If we see this production is promising, there is of course the option to expand this to a bigger, official VI product.

best
Herb

One also has to wonder just how much will always be lacking in any sample library since they players are playing static notes.

There must be some indescribable, unrecordable, aspect of playing a full line vs. sampling one note at a time that keeps this whole thing elusive.

I imagine it's very difficult for the players to achieve any emotion during a sampling session!

TH

@herb said:

The stuff produced in this three days will be a freebee for our Pro's, as announced.
If we see this production is promising, there is of course the option to expand this to a bigger, official VI product.

best
Herb

So what you're saying here Herb is that the 3 day session cycle is sort of an experimental foray - and if this works out well, we could be talking fairly extensive Epic String library to be forthcoming?

I was wondering if it would make sense to record this large section playing (f-ff) espressivo in octaves. Often you hear oktavized melodic lines in the violins when you talk about "that" epic sound. I have a hunch it would work much better if recorded in one sample, instead of just layering the samples we have at hand now..

Oh, and how about taking a trip into the center and do the recording in Konzerthaus?? [:D]

Yes, octaves would be important. Although personally I might prefer to play the part in octaves myself using both hands. Having recorded octaves is very handy, I admit, but also limits the dynamics range between the 2 notes. Example, if in your octave melody you happen to repeat a note 5 times, the dynamic range between both notes will be the same for every note you play and that kills expression. But I also understand not everybody is a pianist...

@Nicklas said:

[...] Oh, and how about taking a trip into the center and do the recording in Konzerthaus?? [:D]

Don't worry, _this_ is the easier part. We have already recorded all the famous halls of the Vienna Konzerthaus for the MIR, in about every aspect you can think about - epic as well as pathetic [+o(]

@Dietz said:

[...] epic as well as pathetic [+o(]

The pathetic would be for Pathos i presume.
As a humorous aside Dietz, will this 'apethetic' articulation be available for the extended Cube library in the future?

Regards to you all,

Alex!

[H]

@Dietz said:

... as well as pathetic [+o(]

Ooh. I hadn't thought of "pathetic strings" before now. Of course! A stroke of genius ... very meek, tinny, somewhat out of tune, bad sounding strings ... but incredibly realistic, in a fifth-rate community orchestra sort of way.

Just the thing for that "student recital" cue, perhaps. No more need to hire bad violinists. Ah, the possibilities!

- Paul Smith

Nice idea, Paul, but I was referring more to the possibilty to use instruments at non-conventional, strange-sounding positions of the MIR-sampled halls, too, like standing outside the stage-door .... [;)]

Funny this should come up. I've had this idea for a long time...seriously...to do a 'School Orchestra' sample library, for those very moments - they come up more often than you think don't they?

Probably won't need 500GB though! [:)]

Colin

@cwillsher said:

Funny this should come up. I've had this idea for a long time...seriously...to do a 'School Orchestra' sample library, for those very moments - they come up more often than you think don't they?

Probably won't need 500GB though! [:)]

Colin

Nah, I can do that without samples, and without trying. It's the pro orchestra sound that I have trouble with.

DG

Dietz,

Have you killed this thread?[:P]

Hopefully not! [H]

"Just for info:

to produce a performance interval instrument with one dynamic layer would take the major part of the six sessions. some small add ons are possible.
It's not possible to produce two performance intervall sets in this time.

We have to decide: focus on this performance thing, or more variations of "standard" samples

best
Herb"

This is a lovely offer...

I think Jay hit it on the head with extend it to include 2 dynamics with per-legato. It would also be nice to get a set of staccs to go with them.

That said I have never seen a large string ensemble sampled well. Most often in samples, the larger the section, the more synthy it becomes. Large sections of course can be fantastic recorded live, but so far the larger sections sampled (EW, KH) do not work well. Jay also pointed out doing a test session. I realize it would be another expense but far better than spending 3 days recording and coming out with what seemed to be great recordings, but not great samples.

My 2 cents

I agree with that - the larger section does not necessarily translate into larger sound in a mix. You stop hearing individual players within sections (which helps with an impression of size) and the sound becomes more homogenous. It can actually sound smaller because all those players are being crammed into one patch. In general, layering accomplishes far more size in a mix than using one monolithically huge section.

It's not that I'm against a larger section, but just that it's far more crucial to do the recording of the missing legato articulations.