Yes, good points by William also, although I think one should still go for the large section 22 player option if possible.

William pretty much said it himself when using the Epic Horns as comparison...since that hornsection is double the size of a regular one. Personally I'm pretty convinced the section size will be of importance for the overall sound. Besides, if you make a brand new Violinsection, why do it the same as before? VSL already has a 14 player one, so I think the appropriate question rather is: why not use a larger one?

R

@William said:

I feel this is the single most important thing - musically - that VSL can do. The only weakness it has in my opinion, in a purely musical sense (not technically), is the fact that the ensemble violins, in legato, alternate between a very dry, almost senza vibrato p, and a very loud f or portamento. And so there is NO lyrical legato for emotional, espressivo but NOT extremely loud violin lines.

THIS IS THE MAIN THING THAT VIOLINS ARE FAMOUS FOR!!!!! IT IS MISSING!!!!

(Sorry, was that just a bit overstated? I'll try and calm down now. Moving right along...)

If this current approach is merely expanded to huge, massive numbers, I don't think this would help that much. Most people don't need gigantically massive violin sections, but rather richer-sounding normal sections. "Romantic Strings" - that was the name talked about before, and it indicates the quality that is currently not really represented by any sample library.

Specifically, in legato, if the middle dynamic could be recorded - an mp, that was exactly like the espressivo quality of the regular horns and the Epic Horns in their mp legato - THIS WOULD BE TREMENDOUS! In other words, a very fluid, lyrical, delicate expressive legato. Not a dry, merely "connect-the-notes" type such as exists now in the p, but one in which you hear the beautiful singing note transitions with tiny audible differences in timing between the individual players that make for a lyrical legato string line. This would be not a portamento exactly, but halfway between portamento and legato.

Anything that enhanced this lyrical, espressivo side of string playing would be MORE USED THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE FEATURE OF THE LIBRARY.

One more nod for William's comments. Herb - do what you did going from standard horns to Epic horns. The latter - even though larger seem so much warmer and lyrical. Size may be important to get there (with samples) - I don't know - but I really think you know. Your later releases (Epic Horns and Chamber strings show improvement over the stuff recorded 3-4 years ago) - that's good. Us consumers expect and welcome continual improvement.

Nail this recording and programming and you will eliminate the really only weak chink in your armour (strings).

Many thanks for the offer.


Rob

Great idea.

Size DOES matter. One poster mentioned John Barry. Good heavens, John Barry IS working with more than 14 1st violins! [;)]

The most important thing to me would be to have at least the number of violins Herb has suggested, and ...here's the kicker...

PLEASE LISTEN TO THE VIOLINS in the HIGHER REGISTERS. This is where most libraries start sounding strident or otherwise offensive, VSL included. Right now it is principally because arrangements that use the very high registers are seldom written when the arranger knows the section will be smaller. So Herb, if you are doing 20 or more violins, much of that will be alleviated. Right now I have to mix in samples from other libraries to lessen the stridency and thicken the texture of high violin legato, "soaring" sections. Often those other samples are playing with more expression as well.

This is a great offer, I am wondering if you could clarify one thing:

Would this offer only apply to those buying the FULL Standard set? I own Performance Set, and all the the Pro Edition libraries. If I couldn't afford the whole new standard edition at once, and wanted to start with just the strings, would this offer apply?

Thanks
Tom H

Yes, I am not against the bigger size at all, just wanted to emphasize that performance aspect. Excellent point by Rob Elliot about the Epic horns warmth.

Also, Tom bringing up John Barry - absolutely. He is THE master of "Epic Strings." That is funny, since I was just listening to "Walkabout" which has the most soaring violin melody ever done for film music, and "Lion in Winter." Not to mention "Somewhere in Time" not to mention... etc., etc. ,etc. If these strings were specifcally for playing John Barry music - that would nail it.

Good point Tom. The higher registers I AVOID (rather not have them to there to call attention to themselves - ofter use horns, flutes, clarinets if possible - WOULD REALLY like soaring strings though.)

"Pinched and nasally" is how I would describe ALL string upper range libraries. Add to that 'Metalic' and void of warmth. IMHO.

I know VSL has a purist mentality (which in most cases has served you well), but perhaps with Epic Strings (ES), there should be some post processing (filters, eq, - whatever it takes to get this sound.)


Rob

@William said:

Yes, I am not against the bigger size at all, just wanted to emphasize that performance aspect. Excellent point by Rob Elliot about the Epic horns warmth.

Also, Tom bringing up John Barry - absolutely. He is THE master of "Epic Strings." That is funny, since I was just listening to "Walkabout" which has the most soaring violin melody ever done for film music, and "Lion in Winter." Not to mention "Somewhere in Time" not to mention... etc., etc. ,etc. If these strings were specifcally for playing John Barry music - that would nail it.

William - dances with wolves is also not half bad example of what a warm soaring string section SHOULD sound like.


Herb - you nail this one and you will carve out a niche noone currently owns!!!


Rob

hehe.. dances with wolves was the exact soundtrack I had in mind when I mentioned John Barry [:)]

Yes - I thought I could rely on you Bill.

The parallel with Epic Horns - the best horn library out there - is a very good one.

Suddenly John Barry gets the spotlight. Wow!

[:D]

I think the suggestion about using the current pro edition string section as the "2nd" violin would be great. The Larger Epic 1st violin section that you are going to produce does not need all the articulations like the original Strings and chamber strings and solo. It would be nice though if time would allow.....

-Ben

Herb,
great idea ! I'd say ...do your thing....
just keep "warmth" in mind...

Awesome ! Looking forward to it.

thanks,

Thor

one question:

would it also be possible to purchase these epic strings as a non-pro edition user?

the only wish i would have for the strings would a "not-so-close"-recording. on the opus (and vsl of course) strings i sometimes have the feeling that the bow noise and the closeness is sometimes a little bit too much.

it would be really cool to have at least a little bit room (not really room or a hall) but just a little more room on the strings than now.

i sometimes have the feeling when listening to the strings that they are not just dry (what i of course love) but the players stand like 3 mm in front of me and for my ears this doesn't sound very real.

kinda like the same concept which was used on epic horns for example.

Hi Herb,

Yes ! This is a wonderful [I] I think we are all in need for additional strings, 'Epic Violins' will be a great addition, maybe'Epic Celli' will follow them... [[;)]]

'Epic Horns' is one of the most popular Horizon Series Titles. So, 'Epic Violins' will most likely be very, very popular.

I don't own the Pro Edition Strings, but own some of the Horizon series titles, I will instantly buy "Epic Violins", this is a no brainer for me, highly needed !

I am guessing that 'Epic Violins' would be a seperate Vienna Instrument package, that I could purchase independent of the Strings I , Strings II,...etc. , any feedback on this detail ?

Thanks.

Hmmm - I don't know Herb, but you just might want to take more than 3 days in session. This library could be a real winner and has been talked about for quite some time now.

Alex - definitely be available as a single purchase I would guess.

I think the suggestion about using the current pro edition string section as the "2nd" violin would be great. The Larger Epic 1st violin section that you are going to produce does not need all the articulations like the original Strings and chamber strings and solo. It would be nice though if time would allow.....

-Ben

@PaulR said:

Hmmm - I don't know Herb, but you just might want to take more than 3 days in session. This library could be a real winner and has been talked about for quite some time now.

Alex - definitely be available as a single purchase I would guess.

I agree PaulR,

'Epic Violins' should not be rushed, or squeezed in a busy recording schedule, or viewed as a bonus material, they are IMHO one of the key, and currently missing components of the VSL Librarary. Lots of care, and attention to detail should be put into producing them, even if they require a week, or more.

I will order them today, if they existed !

@William said:

I feel this is the single most important thing - musically - that VSL can do. The only weakness it has in my opinion, in a purely musical sense (not technically), is the fact that the ensemble violins, in legato, alternate between a very dry, almost senza vibrato p, and a very loud f or portamento. And so there is NO lyrical legato for emotional, espressivo but NOT extremely loud violin lines.

If this current approach is merely expanded to huge, massive numbers, I don't think this would help that much. Most people don't need gigantically massive violin sections, but rather richer-sounding normal sections. "Romantic Strings" - that was the name talked about before, and it indicates the quality that is currently not really represented by any sample library.

Specifically, in legato, if the middle dynamic could be recorded - an mp, that was exactly like the espressivo quality of the regular horns and the Epic Horns in their mp legato - THIS WOULD BE TREMENDOUS! In other words, a very fluid, lyrical, delicate expressive legato. Not a dry, merely "connect-the-notes" type such as exists now in the p, but one in which you hear the beautiful singing note transitions with tiny audible differences in timing between the individual players that make for a lyrical legato string line. This would be not a portamento exactly, but halfway between portamento and legato.

Anything that enhanced this lyrical, espressivo side of string playing would be MORE USED THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE FEATURE OF THE LIBRARY.

Just another vote of support for William's angle on this - especially the legato mp or mf need. I also support calls for better high-register material. (Better = not brittle, shrill, close).

- Paul Smith

@PaulR said:

Hmmm - I don't know Herb, but you just might want to take more than 3 days in session. This library could be a real winner and has been talked about for quite some time now.

Alex - definitely be available as a single purchase I would guess.

I agree PaulR,

'Epic Violins' should not be rushed, or squeezed in a busy recording schedule, or viewed as a bonus material, they are IMHO one of the key, and currently missing components of the VSL Librarary. Lots of care, and attention to detail should be put into producing them, even if they require a week, or more.

I will order them today, if they existed !


Herb - getting a feeling for how important THIS effort would be. [:D]

Alex - Epic Horns IMHO sounds as good as it does for two reasons - size of sections AND the mics are not sitting right on top of the instruments (they are given some breathing room - as well as the 'room' is heard in them).

Could be wrong - mostly am [[;)]]

Rob

@Rob Elliott said:

Alex - Epic Horns IMHO sounds as good as it does for two reasons - size of sections AND the mics are not sitting right on top of the instruments (they are given some breathing room - as well as the 'room' is heard in them)

right, in my opinion it is one of the best recording method to not choose special mics and put it in special angles with this and that and bla, mostly there is a cool and natural sound with just two neumann in xy oder ortf micing.

anyone i know that the vsl guys do a pretty cool job on all recordings but sometimes a little more breathing room like you mentioned would be the some cream on top of the already tasty cake [:)]

Alex,

I think Epic horns (perhaps we have Thomas to thank) broke 'new ground' for an already outstanding developer. Subsequent to this developement we will all hear even better libraries from our VSL team. I am confident of it.

They knew this long before the incredible sales. Imagine the first 'review' of this library - the 'sound' they produce IMHO is really a paradigm shift - the next level.

A director said to me on a recent project - that was the best french horn section he had ever heard - complimented my 'conducting' of it. All I said was thank you. [:D]

(not really a fib - I did have to 'conduct' my virtual players [:P] )


Rob

I also like this plan!

I had pretty much decided not to buy the new VI, even though I desperately covet it, because I just bought the Pro Edition and Performance Set a month ago (along with two new computers, GS3, Sonar5, Sibelius 4, some outboard stuff, etc., you all get the idea). I still have to build a vocal booth, buy mikes an pre amps and all that.

This deal would almost certainly change my mind!

My only question regarding this is, once you upgrade to VI, how often will you really use this new material in the old way?

I still like the offer but the fact remains that, at the end of the day, VI seems to be an entirely new step in sample based orchestra use that leaves everything else, including the "old" VSL, in the dust. So, with this offer we'll get wonderful new string material but will we really use it?

Having said all that, my votes for the new material include:

1. What William said.

2. HARMONICS!!! - straight, tremolo and glissando (looped and/not).

3. Better sound in the high registers (I agree with others they are currently unusable)

4. Larger section.

5. Warm, Romantic sound.

6. Jete, Spiccato, Pizzicato Quasi Guitarra, Pizzicato Tremolo

7. Celli would be nice but better to take the time to do the violins right than to add more instruments not done as well.

More than anything I wish to applaud Herb and company for really trying to think of a way to consider the needs and feelings of VSL users. It appears that you are really trying to find a way to make this work out well for all concerned. Kudos to you and to the VSL company!

Be Well,

Poppa

PS: Based on what everyone else has said, I'm ordering the Epic Horns RIGHT NOW!!! [:D]