William, I could not agree with you more. Till this day I still use the Miroslav String Ensembles. The sound is just there, pure and simple. And I will probably still be using it for a few more years to come. Its a antique, but still works.
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For what its worth... Here is Thomas J comments on Northern Sounds...
There are perfectly explainable reasons why the higher range of strings are difficult to capture musically. Unfortunately, and ironically, by traditional sampling methods you're suffering by the technical excellence of the professional musicians. They'll strive for perfect intonation, which in such a concentrated context (a long note at a time, in isolation, at half or whole note increments) will be rather easy for them to achieve as a group. As they go higher and higher up the highest string, it'll become increasingly difficult to maintain good intonation and vibrato, but because these are professional players they'll make it sound quite effortless. Therein lies the problem. If you're present at the recording session you may marvel at the great tone and technical supremacy being displayed there and then, but when time comes to build a patch in your sampler you'll find it to be anything but realistic sounding in other musical contexts than simple, lengthy static parts. Just for the sake of comparison, if you were to give these musicians some music to play (specifically something less static in the upper register of their instruments) the ensemble would immediately take on a very different character. Why? Well.. because of the inevitably more noticeable intonation discrepancies between each individual player in the group that happen as natural results of playing "sul corda" or in 3rd or 4th position where fingers are cramped, the ensemble will sound bigger and the vibrato will sound wider at the beginning of longer notes before intonation is corrected within the group. What many people don't realize is that the exaggerated romantic high strings hollywood vibrato that you all love is actually considered bad technique among many string players (particularly in Austria I've gathered, hence the relatively conservative string ensemble vibrato in the VSL library) because it essentially comes to life with (oftentimes even deliberately) poor intonation. Knowing this is absolutely crucial to the outcome and success of any string sampling endeavor. This is what developers need to focus on in order to reproduce the high range of string instruments in a way that more accurately resembles people's general conceptions of what strings sound like in that register. It's by no means an easy task, though. It's a given that they'll have to step away from conventional methods of sampling and look into ways of coaxing musicians into performing what will ultimately yield more natural results in the domain of a digital sampler. Sorry if I went a bit off topic. As for more audible rosin noise in the higher range of the violins? Welcome to reality
Food for thought maybe?
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What do you say VSL? Can you step away from intented perfection to achieve what so many people want (particularily from the high sweeping <insert your preferred term for romantic, expressive, etc.> Strings.
Make a lot of sense. Hopefully it is not too late for your upcoming session.
Rob
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I feel that it is more linked to vibrato than anything else. At a medium and above volume of playing one tends to hear the slightly individual vibratos (vibrati?) seeping through. However, whether or not it is possible to translate this to samples I don't know, but it would be good to be able to layer with something else and then duck and dive as necessary. I find that if I do that with either Chamber Strings or Solo Violin it sort of works, but makes the sound smaller, which is the opposite of what I want.
DG
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Hopefully it is not too late for your upcoming session.
at the moment we are looking for the final setup, and we've read all of your comments so far. of course, i've made my mind up about this tuning and vibrato issue, but there is nothing to refer about at the moment.
we're not going to produce only a bigger violinsection, without any influence of the whole experience of the VSL-community, which includes our customers and the VSL-team, thats all i can promise by now.
regards, michael hula
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Thanks Michael for the update. I just noticed how active this thread has been - I hope you get a feel for how truly important this is (I am sure you do [:D] )
Get this right and I am sure you know what this means to VSL ($$) [[;)]]
Thanks again.
Rob
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I am happy that such an addition to the violin library will be added.
FWIW, as a conductor I chuckle at the different descriptive terms over which some are fencing. The words "epic", "romantic", "expressive", etc. should never be considered apart from their behavior over the ENTIRE dynamic range. Romantic or expressive playing is not limited to the much-needed p-mp-mf range. Little good it would do to have only these dynamics to use if a composition called for a respectable forte, as with dunk187's example of Princess Leia's Theme.
One thing I miss from a lot of electronic realizations of orchestral scores in the strings is an awareness of when and where a string player will be forced to use one-finger portamento, especially when playing larger intervals in altissimo passages. Granted, the need for a fatter, warmer violin section is not to be overlooked, but there are so many other elements to creating a convincing violin track which aren't always employed.
I do agree that having access and control over varying degrees of vibrato are crucial, something I really enjoyed seeing demonstrated with VI solo violin earlier this week.
I'm all for using a larger section-- large sections CAN play softly as well-- it's not *always* about loud playing, but there are plenty of times when I miss a good expressive f-ff as much as I do a convincing espr. p-mp-mf.
I say, bring it ALL on-- and don't hold back.
...and when the violins are done, how about those violas and cellos?
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@Christian Marcussen said:
Romantic celli - mmmmmmm - me like
YES! Imagine having these new romantic violini and celli doubling each other two octaves apart. Juicy!!
..and hey-- violins playing entire passages on the G string. I miss that a lot. It's not the same as creating the same part on an extra viola track.
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@Christian Marcussen said:
Romantic celli - mmmmmmm - me like
YES! Imagine having these new romantic violini and celli doubling each other two octaves apart. Juicy!!
..and hey-- violins playing entire passages on the G string. I miss that a lot. It's not the same as creating the same part on an extra viola track.
Think JW's 'minority report - Sean's Theme'. Personnally if I had that sound -- [[:|]] [:D]
Rob
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@Laurent said:
Absolutly, but don't forget those are the best player in the wold, London Symphonic Orchestrta…
The excellence of certain soundtracks-- the care and level of detail put into the production and performances all serve to spoil us. Despite the fact most of us don't have easy access to the LSO to play our scores, we can only sit patiently pining to reach some semblance of the same level of accomplishment with VSL.
Consequently, we VSL users make life very difficult for the VSL team-- but as long as they're up for the challenge they have my support!
Hmm. The LSO.
It doesn't hurt to dream--- or does it?
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SCREW THE LSO.
Long ago I decided that performers and conductors would not not be permitted to SHIT on my compositions any more. The entire idea of using samples is an attempt at getting away from the stupidity and wretchedness of live performance and all the compromises it entails.
You can dream all you want, of having the "wonderful" LSO give you the ultimate compliment of lowering themselves to play your music, but I spit on your dreams. I do not view sampling as a part-time substitute for being screwed over by a conductor or music director or groups of stuck-up classical performers. It is an art of purity and no-compromise (to the few individuals - not you - who view it that way) that is far higher than the LSO or any lousy stinking orchestra/conductor/music director that lives to put down composers and their work.
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Uh...OK..William...just don't spin your head completely around or begin levitating and everything should be fine...
TH
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@William said:
SCREW THE LSO.
Long ago I decided that performers and conductors would not not be permitted to SHIT on my compositions any more. The entire idea of using samples is an attempt at getting away from the stupidity and wretchedness of live performance and all the compromises it entails.
You can dream all you want, of having the "wonderful" LSO give you the ultimate compliment of lowering themselves to play your music, but I spit on your dreams. I do not view sampling as a part-time substitute for being screwed over by a conductor or music director or groups of stuck-up classical performers. It is an art of purity and no-compromise (to the few individuals - not you - who view it that way) that is far higher than the LSO or any lousy stinking orchestra/conductor/music director that lives to put down composers and their work.
Hey William, no offense here, but don't blame our dreams for your unfortunate experiences. We all have horror stories. And try not to let the politics and corruption of the real world turn you so far off that you'll prejudge a conductor and an orchestra who would otherwise be big fans of yours. That is, unless you've given up entirely on live performances of your works for the sake of art itself rather than for the lousy ways the music industry is run.
I am a conductor-- and have worked with the LSO among many others. My career has thrived on being what Eric Leinsdorf called "the composer's advocate" by standing up for worthy composers who's works would otherwise not stand a chance in what is clearly overall a narrow-minded, short-sighted industry.
I concur with the cruelty of the business, but even as a conductor who had no interest in anything but live performances I am well acquainted with composers being treated badly. Hence I've turned to VSL and my optimism returned as a medium for getting my own works heard in advance of being booked.
Many conductors fail to realize that composers are their most cherished resource. Orchestral players can be snobbish, conductors can be stuck in their own ego-driven worlds, but I've proven that I know my audiences well-- and when the audiences respond favorably to a new work, EVERYBODY shuts up and pays attention because that translates into new listeners and new ticket sales.
As a conductor, I realize that I am in very bad company-- there are a lot of "sphincters" out there, and the past 25 years of my career have been mostly a process of proving myself to be as much unlike the others as possible.
God bless composers who live and thrive on the edge of creativity. This is sorely underrated in orchestra world where preserving the older relics seems to be the extent of their interest; and if today's orchestras (especially in the US) don't wake up to this fact, we'll see more and more and more of them folding.
Whatever it takes to keep yourself creative, do it. Your works WILL find the respect they deserve and the right conductor who will fight for you and do the right thing, if that window of hope remains open-- just a little...
(Sorry to go OT...)
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I know this goes against the philosophy a bit, but recording a violin section in a smaller dry space will never sound the same as with some natural ambience, however good the reverb. EWQL is over teh top to the other extreme but Sonic Implants have it about right. So....
A lyrical legato p/mf and f half way between your normal perf legato and portamento is what's required.
Recorded in a more ambient space using a decca tree
Very fast runs up and down
Stacatissimo p, mf and f
Sounds like a great idea
