Ben -- this exemplifies the issue I've always have with almost all the VSL strings. In a word -- thin. Add to that nasal, weak, etc. Not warm, full, etc. Sorry to be so blunt, but I continually have to work really hard to get anything full sounding out of the VSL strings in what is otherwise a great and groundbreaking library. I always have to layer them with strings from other libraries, using the VSLs to provide the legato factor (but mixed low).

I remember way back when I first got this library and was incredibly eager and excited to get to the strings after being blown away by the woodwinds. I kept going through preset after preset, thinking that those magic warm strings were just a few clicks away. I'm still looking believe it or not, for something I may have missed.

A solo line like this really exposes these issues, as orchestration problems are not to blame. I'm looking to the future to see what VSL and others may bring forth to solve these problems. I have great hope for the forthcoming Epic Strings as the VSL Epic Horns are their best full sounding work to date. Thomas_J's recent ensemble strings are exactly what's missing.

I have nothing but the highest respect for everyone at VSL and the hard, hard work that they've done to bring us this fantastic library, but this is my critique of it, and I post this to contribute to the progress VSL is bound to make with their next round of accomplishments. Can't wait to hear it!

Gary

@dunk187 said:

I've been trying to duplicate John Williams large voilin section. Let me know what you guys think. This was done with Pro Edition, Solo and Chamber Strings. I tried a lot of subtle realtime detuning after I laid the tracks and it seems to work great....I'm sure we could get a better sound if I spent time to EQ it right.....

http://www.cratewatchers.com/starwars/princessleah.mp3

-Ben

Ben,
Have you tried saturating the samples with a 'tape warmer' of some sort? I've got samples i recorded many years ago with orchestral friends that needed a little help from time to time.

Just a thought,

Alex.

I have to agree with Gary. You can comprehend that it's supposed to be a violin section but there's no way you could think it's a real one. It's like having a zoo with cardboard animals. I too have the utmost respect for VSL's work but the sustained strings aren't their forte. I can't wait to hear the Epic Violins assuming that folks at VSL don't think that having a bigger section is going to make the strings shine.

Thanks Ben for posting this very exposed solo string line. I think the comments made are spot on. This is exactly what all of us are dealing with when VSL is our 'go to' string. Frankly it is just not much a 'go to' option. Can't wait to hear Epic strings!!!!! [:D]


Rob

BTW why epic string ? when everybody means romantic passionate strings ?
Epic horns are bright and really "epic"

Janilia,

I agree with you, I don't believe just making the section bigger will solve everyones problem. Concentrating on the tone and the Vibrato probably will make them sound more "Real" (What ever that word means now). The fact of the matter is.....We are still going to have to tweak them and add our own imperfections to the samples to give it a human touch. People expecting Epic Strings to solve all thier string problems out of the box WILL be disapointed, I guarantee.

-Ben

It's both.

Just making them bigger alone isn't the answer of course, but it definitely is part of the answer.

The passion in the playing, the expression, is most important. Add size to that passionate, emotional playing, and that's pretty much the difference between that sound and what we have now.

TH

If not 'epic strings', then why not call them 'rich strings'. That sounds like what we need if everyone thinks the old ones are thin. [:D]

@Jonathan Mitchell said:

If not 'epic strings', then why not call them 'rich strings'. That sounds like what we need if everyone thinks the old ones are thin. [:D]

Rich, expressive strings it is [:D]


Jonathan (did you parents listen to Joni Mitchell?) - one of my favorite femail vocalist!

No, no, no - Jay said what it needs to be called - Romantic Strings. (Note the purple passion.) Also what is most needed here - an mp legato that is espressivo. Not a huge section that is the same, nor a loud one. I think the current f espressivo and f portamento sound really good. But the sound becomes thin in mixes when you use the typical expressive range of the violins, in the pp to mf. And as Jay noted, the p is almost senza vibrato - an almost dead tone.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this - the single most expressive "romantic" violin ensemble sound - even now - is Miroslav Vitous, "Soft Violins." The non-looped version. It has that characterisitc the Jay also discussed, being able to hear individual players as well as the ensemble. But also a rich sound, that came from the players, the hall and the extremely good recording on those old samples. They are too limited to compete with current libraries, but if they were re-recorded with the amount of detail that VSL does it would be the best possible sound.

@William said:

Also what is most needed here - an mp legato that is espressivo.

Yes, I agree totally.

Rob, you're about the millionth person who's asked me that!

The answer is no. I was safely born and up and about long before Joni became famous. However, f you want a Twilight Zone moment, do a google search for Jon, or Jonathan and Mitchell, you'll find an alarming number of people with this name who have a musical connection.

@Jonathan Mitchell said:

Rob, you're about the millionth person who's asked me that!

The answer is no. I was safely born and up and about long before Joni became famous. However, f you want a Twilight Zone moment, do a google search for Jon, or Jonathan and Mitchell, you'll find an alarming number of people with this name who have a musical connection.

Freaky Joni, er Jonathan [:D]

All the best,

(BTW - I saw and heard Joni on a PBS concert recently and she can still keep it in the groove. Singular vocalist that is for sure.)

How about something for people who bought Epic Horns or Opus I?
I just invested late last year in Opus I, Epic Horns and Solo Strings and I'm only getting a real helping hand on upgrading Solo Strings. I find out now that Opus I and Epic Horns is now basically a waste of money. I don't want to have to run Giga at the same time because I'm sick of the BSOD [;)]

I bought in to the early bird special on VI and I'm hearing from the US distributor that it will ship hopefully in March now. Maybe you could give us a perk for the wait??

I love the product, bought it anyway even without the perk but it would be cool.
Thanks.

William, I could not agree with you more. Till this day I still use the Miroslav String Ensembles. The sound is just there, pure and simple. And I will probably still be using it for a few more years to come. Its a antique, but still works.

Boy, I haven't checked this thread for a while, but it seems to be saying the same thing over and over about some ideal romantic strings, and I agree. I hope the message has come across by now...

Hey VSL peeps!

Hows the recording session going with the new strings? Should be doing it around this time according to my calculations?

-Ben

For what its worth... Here is Thomas J comments on Northern Sounds...

@Another User said:

There are perfectly explainable reasons why the higher range of strings are difficult to capture musically. Unfortunately, and ironically, by traditional sampling methods you're suffering by the technical excellence of the professional musicians. They'll strive for perfect intonation, which in such a concentrated context (a long note at a time, in isolation, at half or whole note increments) will be rather easy for them to achieve as a group. As they go higher and higher up the highest string, it'll become increasingly difficult to maintain good intonation and vibrato, but because these are professional players they'll make it sound quite effortless. Therein lies the problem. If you're present at the recording session you may marvel at the great tone and technical supremacy being displayed there and then, but when time comes to build a patch in your sampler you'll find it to be anything but realistic sounding in other musical contexts than simple, lengthy static parts. Just for the sake of comparison, if you were to give these musicians some music to play (specifically something less static in the upper register of their instruments) the ensemble would immediately take on a very different character. Why? Well.. because of the inevitably more noticeable intonation discrepancies between each individual player in the group that happen as natural results of playing "sul corda" or in 3rd or 4th position where fingers are cramped, the ensemble will sound bigger and the vibrato will sound wider at the beginning of longer notes before intonation is corrected within the group. What many people don't realize is that the exaggerated romantic high strings hollywood vibrato that you all love is actually considered bad technique among many string players (particularly in Austria I've gathered, hence the relatively conservative string ensemble vibrato in the VSL library) because it essentially comes to life with (oftentimes even deliberately) poor intonation. Knowing this is absolutely crucial to the outcome and success of any string sampling endeavor. This is what developers need to focus on in order to reproduce the high range of string instruments in a way that more accurately resembles people's general conceptions of what strings sound like in that register. It's by no means an easy task, though. It's a given that they'll have to step away from conventional methods of sampling and look into ways of coaxing musicians into performing what will ultimately yield more natural results in the domain of a digital sampler. Sorry if I went a bit off topic. As for more audible rosin noise in the higher range of the violins? Welcome to reality

Food for thought maybe?

What do you say VSL? Can you step away from intented perfection to achieve what so many people want (particularily from the high sweeping <insert your preferred term for romantic, expressive, etc.> Strings.

Make a lot of sense. Hopefully it is not too late for your upcoming session.

Rob

I feel that it is more linked to vibrato than anything else. At a medium and above volume of playing one tends to hear the slightly individual vibratos (vibrati?) seeping through. However, whether or not it is possible to translate this to samples I don't know, but it would be good to be able to layer with something else and then duck and dive as necessary. I find that if I do that with either Chamber Strings or Solo Violin it sort of works, but makes the sound smaller, which is the opposite of what I want.

DG