Just wanted to re-emphasize that I would really like a mp legato string patch with a sweet romantic vibrato. The current p legato patch is almost non-vibrato. (*sorry- typed non-legato before which was a mistake)

The term "epic" strings makes me a touch nervous because I worry that simply recording a larger number of players will not yield the sound that many of us are searching for. In fact, I'd prefer to actually be able to pick out a few individual instruments here and there as one can usually do in a choir of voices. William mentioned that the current strings sections can sometimes get razor thin in a mix. I think this is partially because of a kind of monolithic accuracy and uniformity to the performances in the samples. Ironically, I think that if there was a way to capture more of individuality the players into the samples then perhaps sections might actually sound fuller and larger even if the number of players is not actually increased.

Thoughts?

Best,
Jay

Jay,
As a former orchestral player, i oftem found the live strings version of 'A440' to be quite thick, hence the lush sound. I think VSL haven't neccessarily been too accurate, but the section tuning is very precise, and it's my view that the prception of thin strings comes from this. My tiny collection i use whilst travelling was recorded years ago by friends and has a 'thicker' sound. But that's 4 violins quadrupled in a mix, so the odd wide tuning sits out a little. I would rather a precise tuning method, then be able to manipulate it from there, so i'm kind of in VSL's camp here. I have a question at this point, and you're certainly the fellow to ask. Would the sound improve in 'width' if you were to record the current section strings by 4, detuning, and varying expression for each, then pulling the lot together, with an adjustment in dynamics for the increased number of players?

I mean it doesn't really matter that much if you're using '56' sampled players if the end result sounds like a normal string section, full and complete, does it?
Maybe we're thinking in a related orchestral way about this, instead of concentrating purely on the validity of the sound, and almost ignoring how we put it together. For example, i often 'ghost' a flute with the strings if i want the sound a little brighter. That's not a notated flute, merely a sound enhancer. And if i want a slighty more fluid sound, i 'ghost' a clarinet, un notated the same. almost at zero in volume, just a whisper really.

I'd be interested in hearing something like the quadrupled section, just to establish some sort of benchmark of how much is too much.

Regards,

Alex.

i think the problem with the "multiply the smaller section" appraoch is similar to what happens when trying to sweeten a smaller section when thee budget isn't there (is it ever?). if the players don't have the sweetened parts in their headphones all hell breaks loose because they don't have anything to reference to. if on the other hand smaller sections were recorded against some sort of reference part, i wonder whether the players would zero in "too much" on the tuning and again leave us with the same problem. obviously don't have any idea what the answer may be but thoughts might be interesting...

Can I just chime in, for my money it would be great to have a patch that has at least 4 layers, with increasing **intensity** of performance, always dolce in tone, but becoming more appassionata with each layer.

Just my 2p!

Cheers

Paul

@PaulThomson said:

Can I just chime in, for my money it would be great to have a patch that has at least 4 layers, with increasing **intensity** of performance, always dolce in tone, but becoming more appassionata with each layer.

Just my 2p!

Cheers

Paul

Yes, that is really sorely needed. The violins as they are now are just not expressive at all. Very straight, with no emotion. What good does it do us to have a legato viollin section with no emotion? This is the single biggest fault of the VSL violins. I'm sure they will take care of it.

TH

@PaulThomson said:

Can I just chime in, for my money it would be great to have a patch that has at least 4 layers, with increasing **intensity** of performance, always dolce in tone, but becoming more appassionata with each layer.

Just my 2p!

Cheers

Paul

Perfect Paul - this is a right on requirement!!!


Rob

I've been trying to duplicate John Williams large voilin section. Let me know what you guys think. This was done with Pro Edition, Solo and Chamber Strings. I tried a lot of subtle realtime detuning after I laid the tracks and it seems to work great....I'm sure we could get a better sound if I spent time to EQ it right.....

http://www.cratewatchers.com/starwars/princessleah.mp3

-Ben

Ben -- this exemplifies the issue I've always have with almost all the VSL strings. In a word -- thin. Add to that nasal, weak, etc. Not warm, full, etc. Sorry to be so blunt, but I continually have to work really hard to get anything full sounding out of the VSL strings in what is otherwise a great and groundbreaking library. I always have to layer them with strings from other libraries, using the VSLs to provide the legato factor (but mixed low).

I remember way back when I first got this library and was incredibly eager and excited to get to the strings after being blown away by the woodwinds. I kept going through preset after preset, thinking that those magic warm strings were just a few clicks away. I'm still looking believe it or not, for something I may have missed.

A solo line like this really exposes these issues, as orchestration problems are not to blame. I'm looking to the future to see what VSL and others may bring forth to solve these problems. I have great hope for the forthcoming Epic Strings as the VSL Epic Horns are their best full sounding work to date. Thomas_J's recent ensemble strings are exactly what's missing.

I have nothing but the highest respect for everyone at VSL and the hard, hard work that they've done to bring us this fantastic library, but this is my critique of it, and I post this to contribute to the progress VSL is bound to make with their next round of accomplishments. Can't wait to hear it!

Gary

@dunk187 said:

I've been trying to duplicate John Williams large voilin section. Let me know what you guys think. This was done with Pro Edition, Solo and Chamber Strings. I tried a lot of subtle realtime detuning after I laid the tracks and it seems to work great....I'm sure we could get a better sound if I spent time to EQ it right.....

http://www.cratewatchers.com/starwars/princessleah.mp3

-Ben

Ben,
Have you tried saturating the samples with a 'tape warmer' of some sort? I've got samples i recorded many years ago with orchestral friends that needed a little help from time to time.

Just a thought,

Alex.

I have to agree with Gary. You can comprehend that it's supposed to be a violin section but there's no way you could think it's a real one. It's like having a zoo with cardboard animals. I too have the utmost respect for VSL's work but the sustained strings aren't their forte. I can't wait to hear the Epic Violins assuming that folks at VSL don't think that having a bigger section is going to make the strings shine.

Thanks Ben for posting this very exposed solo string line. I think the comments made are spot on. This is exactly what all of us are dealing with when VSL is our 'go to' string. Frankly it is just not much a 'go to' option. Can't wait to hear Epic strings!!!!! [:D]


Rob

BTW why epic string ? when everybody means romantic passionate strings ?
Epic horns are bright and really "epic"

Janilia,

I agree with you, I don't believe just making the section bigger will solve everyones problem. Concentrating on the tone and the Vibrato probably will make them sound more "Real" (What ever that word means now). The fact of the matter is.....We are still going to have to tweak them and add our own imperfections to the samples to give it a human touch. People expecting Epic Strings to solve all thier string problems out of the box WILL be disapointed, I guarantee.

-Ben

It's both.

Just making them bigger alone isn't the answer of course, but it definitely is part of the answer.

The passion in the playing, the expression, is most important. Add size to that passionate, emotional playing, and that's pretty much the difference between that sound and what we have now.

TH

If not 'epic strings', then why not call them 'rich strings'. That sounds like what we need if everyone thinks the old ones are thin. [:D]

@Jonathan Mitchell said:

If not 'epic strings', then why not call them 'rich strings'. That sounds like what we need if everyone thinks the old ones are thin. [:D]

Rich, expressive strings it is [:D]


Jonathan (did you parents listen to Joni Mitchell?) - one of my favorite femail vocalist!

No, no, no - Jay said what it needs to be called - Romantic Strings. (Note the purple passion.) Also what is most needed here - an mp legato that is espressivo. Not a huge section that is the same, nor a loud one. I think the current f espressivo and f portamento sound really good. But the sound becomes thin in mixes when you use the typical expressive range of the violins, in the pp to mf. And as Jay noted, the p is almost senza vibrato - an almost dead tone.

I wonder if anyone else has noticed this - the single most expressive "romantic" violin ensemble sound - even now - is Miroslav Vitous, "Soft Violins." The non-looped version. It has that characterisitc the Jay also discussed, being able to hear individual players as well as the ensemble. But also a rich sound, that came from the players, the hall and the extremely good recording on those old samples. They are too limited to compete with current libraries, but if they were re-recorded with the amount of detail that VSL does it would be the best possible sound.

@William said:

Also what is most needed here - an mp legato that is espressivo.

Yes, I agree totally.

Rob, you're about the millionth person who's asked me that!

The answer is no. I was safely born and up and about long before Joni became famous. However, f you want a Twilight Zone moment, do a google search for Jon, or Jonathan and Mitchell, you'll find an alarming number of people with this name who have a musical connection.

@Jonathan Mitchell said:

Rob, you're about the millionth person who's asked me that!

The answer is no. I was safely born and up and about long before Joni became famous. However, f you want a Twilight Zone moment, do a google search for Jon, or Jonathan and Mitchell, you'll find an alarming number of people with this name who have a musical connection.

Freaky Joni, er Jonathan [:D]

All the best,

(BTW - I saw and heard Joni on a PBS concert recently and she can still keep it in the groove. Singular vocalist that is for sure.)