After all and all, I am still fighting the big string sound. Though, I admit, I am getting close. Paul, so true what you have said. In the mean time the fight goes on.....

Because VSL raised the bar so high, it actually ended up doing something that old samples libraries did, but with far more advanced instruments.

This is the old pp vs. ff contrast., which is heard in Siedlaczek to an egregious degree. There is no middle. And yet the middle is the most commonly used sound. This has happened in VSL because of the legato instruments, which are nightmarishly hard to record, but are so far represented in the strings only by a relatively dry p, and a very strong ff. So I feel, as has already been stated, that this mp middle layer of legato, especially with portamento, is crucially important.

it is interesting how the old Miroslav library had a lot of mp or middle dynamic samples, and as a result is STILL BEING USED even though it is a Pre-Cambrian Period sample library.

And what is the most incredibly useful sample the VSL has yet created? Some argument there obviously, but perhaps the mp legato horns. Another MIDDLE DYNAMIC.

Essential! But still non-existent in VSL strings legato.

(Though of course we have to realize they have their hands full, sampling everything in orchestral creation! But the problem is they have created Frankenstein monsters in their customers, demanding MORE AND MORE...)

William,

I agree with you entirely but I'm curious why you never mention mf? Is this assumed as a part of mp? I would be frustrated to have mp but not mf as so much playing falls into that categorie.

mf or mp, either. A full, but not edgy sound is what I mean. I have to admit I don't make a huge distinction between mp and mf. My usual distinction is something like ppp vs. fff. Though of course in scores mp and mf are different in their meaning. But in isolated samples, that distinction breaks down somewhat, especially in the horn samples for example. The mf ensemble with filter samples, are almost the same dynamic as the mp solo with no filter. Or the other way around...to use two I was just playing around with!

@William said:

mf or mp, either. A full, but not edgy sound is what I mean.

I hear you and would of course like to hear those samples as well. [:)]

@DG said:

I think that this is what the sus 4L instruments already do. It is not possible in a legato instruments to play chords.

DG

But the're not silky smooth!

I find I am able to play chords on the legato instruments. you just have to ensure the start time of the respective chord notes is at the same time - yes a build up chord is a no no but a chord with all notes starting at the same time works

Julian

Julian, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. If you manage to play a chord with a legato instrument it would be because you are using start or repeat notes. However the whole purpose of legato is the transition, which by it's nature is monophonic, after all it has to connect the two notes together. If you are playing more than one note, how does the PT know which note to connect to which? If you want legato, you need to play on different channels, and I don't see any change happening with VI unless they manage to program a "psychic mode". [:D]

DG

I've used legato instruments for chords where I've had a predominantly momophonic part (say a flute) where for 2 or 3 bars it goes divisi. Yes I should have a second midi channel and send a phantom note (if I want the transition) or just as I do it now which is creating a second flute joining to play a chord.

I find that there is a balance between the nth degree and actually getting the mix out on time! Hopefully the VI stuff will speed the process somewhat.

Julian

How can we suggest what we need if we even don't know what's inside the Orchestral Strings I AND Orchestral Strings II ??

The Product infos of Orchestral Strings I and II gives you an overview which new articulations are included.

best
Herb

Could I suggest Herb offers some options for what would:

A. Be achievable in the time they have allocated

B. Be a productive and fullfilling use of the session

C. Be useable right out of the box rather than part of something to come

D. Be a useful addition to what is to come on VI strings

E. Reflect what's been expressed on this thread.

Herb your the expert give us some options and we can vote....

otherwise the discussion will still be running in months to come!

thanks

Julian

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

@William said:

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

And we're almost back to what I said on page 1 [[:|]]

DG

@William said:

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

And we're almost back to what I said on page 1 [[:|]]

DG


Exactly. My money is (and has been on VSL), but if someone else comes out with these 'Romantic Strings' - and really nails it on the head, I'd buy it on the first day of release. However, I go back to what I said many pages ago [8-)] - getting this sound must be exceedingly difficult. Proof is that NO ONE has it yet.

Went to the Mormon tabernacle and Orchestra concert last night and was painfully reminded how FAR we still have to go to get 'that romantic string sound' [:'(]

Rob

Well I think we've gone full circle with this now. Romantic strings, romantic strings and more romantic strings!

But I'm personally more sceptic of expecting a magical sound that will have this beautiful romantic effect. I think they could design the sound to be thicker, more vibrato etc but it's going to take much more than that to reach your objective of that romantic string sound you have in mind. I don't think those 2 words "romantic strings"should be tossed around loosely. The complexity of that romantic sound is NOT going to be solved in 3 days of recordings!

I'm still looking forward to having it in my library though.

@Guy said:

Well I think we've gone full circle with this now. Romantic strings, romantic strings and more romantic strings!

But I'm personally more sceptic of expecting a magical sound that will have this beautiful romantic effect. I think they could design the sound to be thicker, more vibrato etc but it's going to take much more than that to reach your objective of that romantic string sound you have in mind. I don't think those 2 words "romantic strings"should be tossed around loosely. The complexity of that romantic sound is NOT going to be solved in 3 days of recordings!

I'm still looking forward to having it in my library though.

Yes, saying it and doing it are two entirely different things - as has been said, if attaining that quality was something simple it would already have been done. I think the main problem with 'romatic strings' is that capturing that sound is so very dependent on the actual context of a performance. A static sampled note simply won't have that emotion all by itself...

I believe it can be done, but that it would take extensive well thought out sessions. Certainly it would make a great Horizon release - possibly the most popular one yet if it really succeeds in its aims!

@jc5 said:

I believe it can be done, but that it would take extensive well thought out sessions. Certainly it would make a great Horizon release - possibly the most popular one yet if it really succeeds in its aims!

Certainly I am not privy to the Epic Horns sales but if - 'when' VSL pulls this off - having 10 tens the sales as Epic HO is not unrealistic. PLUS without a true competitor this will be priced accordingly [:P]

(for the right product - I'll be happy to pay for it.)

Rob

@jc5 said:

I believe it can be done, but that it would take extensive well thought out sessions. Certainly it would make a great Horizon release - possibly the most popular one yet if it really succeeds in its aims!

I agree with that. It would definitely be costly to produce, and thus costly for us to buy. But how much do live musician costs? The price of a refined romantic strings library could be less than the cost of 1 recording session!!

No doubt in my mind within the next 5 years this will become scary, is it live or memorex?

No doubt it will be pricey. [:)] [:'(]

The sessions would have to be on a much grander scale than usual - not simply going in and recording the chromatic scales of each articulation, but actually performingmusic and then whittling away the 'excess'. There would be a fair amount of 'throw away' material played who's only purpose would be to get the expression of the actual sample being recorded correct. (if anyone here has seen - and remembers - the old Warner Bros. cartoon where they show a tooth pick being manufactured - big fearsome factory - with that typical Warner Bros. 'industrial' music - whole trees getting clear cut, shoved into a monstrous machine, big bruhaha, and then at the end from all that - one teeny little tooth pick, everything else waste [[;)]] - an exagerated image to help convey the idea [:D] ).
I don't see how else the sound is to be achieved, without actually coexing the musicians to perform, by actually performing. The session conductor in this case will really be put to work - just as much effort as recording an actual expressive performance, simple beat counting will not do!
And an actual well planned score would have to be written.


Oh and lets not forget, romantic chamber strings as well for divisi... the opening to the prelude to Lohengrin isn't just going to mock itself up. [:D]

@jc5 said:

...The session conductor in this case will really be put to work - just as much effort as recording an actual expressive performance, simple beat counting will not do!
And an actual well planned score would have to be written.

because you have obviously no idea what we are doing in the silent stage, i'm not offended. i thought, you guy's will discuss about the patches you prefer to use, which is the most useful articulation for you and so on, this would be interesting for us to know, to support our decision, which patches our pro-edition owners will get. don't take care how much i'm able to work within three day's, just tell us your patch wishlist.
regards, michael hula

I'll just state again, so it does not get lost. Since we can not record legato in that time (according to Herb) priority for me will be sustains in several velocities which we can crossfade between.

Romantic and lush, with shitloads of vibrato [:)]