Julian,
you're not so far from an idea i had a little while back about recording 'desks' or pairs of players. Sections could be built according to requirement.
Whatever the end result is, i think it's generous of the company to offer this.
There are few that would consider such a step.
And Herb said he had three days spare to do this. Makes you realise just how busy and well organised the team are that three days is 'spare', and it's only three days. Plus scheduling so far ahead. Well planned i'd say, and a positive sign of things to come.

Regards,

Alex.

@julian said:

Also I do find the jump between dynamics (where there are only 2) to be very obvious and can only be sorted by either a massive overlap crossfade between the dynamics or staying on one dynamic only. In addition the louder dynamic, to my ears does not have the realism of the quieter.

So my vote would be for a looped legato violin section (+violas if possible!) that could be played in chords but has 4 dynamics with a suitable crossfade acrss the sample switches. If we end up with a instrument that can start smoothly and quietly and carry a movement right up to an fff climax that would be really cool!

Thanks

Julian

I think that this is what the sus 4L instruments already do. It is not possible in a legato instruments to play chords.

DG

@DG said:

I think that this is what the sus 4L instruments already do. It is not possible in a legato instruments to play chords.
DG

I was going to say that - and then I realized you don't actually need to 'play' them. You could play them and then simply program the legato via overlaps or whatever afterwards.

I think that this is what the sus 4L instruments already do. It is not possible in a legato instruments to play chords.

DG[/quote]

But the're not silky smooth!

I find I am able to play chords on the legato instruments. you just have to ensure the start time of the respective chord notes is at the same time - yes a build up chord is a no no but a chord with all notes starting at the same time works

Julian

@julian said:

But the're not silky smooth!

I find I am able to play chords on the legato instruments. you just have to ensure the start time of the respective chord notes is at the same time - yes a build up chord is a no no but a chord with all notes starting at the same time works
Julian

Although in real life - notes never start at the same time from all the desks - or at least hardly ever. This is one of the complicated issues with getting silky, warm sounding strings - in other words, the samples should probably not be perfect.

After all and all, I am still fighting the big string sound. Though, I admit, I am getting close. Paul, so true what you have said. In the mean time the fight goes on.....

Because VSL raised the bar so high, it actually ended up doing something that old samples libraries did, but with far more advanced instruments.

This is the old pp vs. ff contrast., which is heard in Siedlaczek to an egregious degree. There is no middle. And yet the middle is the most commonly used sound. This has happened in VSL because of the legato instruments, which are nightmarishly hard to record, but are so far represented in the strings only by a relatively dry p, and a very strong ff. So I feel, as has already been stated, that this mp middle layer of legato, especially with portamento, is crucially important.

it is interesting how the old Miroslav library had a lot of mp or middle dynamic samples, and as a result is STILL BEING USED even though it is a Pre-Cambrian Period sample library.

And what is the most incredibly useful sample the VSL has yet created? Some argument there obviously, but perhaps the mp legato horns. Another MIDDLE DYNAMIC.

Essential! But still non-existent in VSL strings legato.

(Though of course we have to realize they have their hands full, sampling everything in orchestral creation! But the problem is they have created Frankenstein monsters in their customers, demanding MORE AND MORE...)

William,

I agree with you entirely but I'm curious why you never mention mf? Is this assumed as a part of mp? I would be frustrated to have mp but not mf as so much playing falls into that categorie.

mf or mp, either. A full, but not edgy sound is what I mean. I have to admit I don't make a huge distinction between mp and mf. My usual distinction is something like ppp vs. fff. Though of course in scores mp and mf are different in their meaning. But in isolated samples, that distinction breaks down somewhat, especially in the horn samples for example. The mf ensemble with filter samples, are almost the same dynamic as the mp solo with no filter. Or the other way around...to use two I was just playing around with!

@William said:

mf or mp, either. A full, but not edgy sound is what I mean.

I hear you and would of course like to hear those samples as well. [:)]

@DG said:

I think that this is what the sus 4L instruments already do. It is not possible in a legato instruments to play chords.

DG

But the're not silky smooth!

I find I am able to play chords on the legato instruments. you just have to ensure the start time of the respective chord notes is at the same time - yes a build up chord is a no no but a chord with all notes starting at the same time works

Julian

Julian, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this. If you manage to play a chord with a legato instrument it would be because you are using start or repeat notes. However the whole purpose of legato is the transition, which by it's nature is monophonic, after all it has to connect the two notes together. If you are playing more than one note, how does the PT know which note to connect to which? If you want legato, you need to play on different channels, and I don't see any change happening with VI unless they manage to program a "psychic mode". [:D]

DG

I've used legato instruments for chords where I've had a predominantly momophonic part (say a flute) where for 2 or 3 bars it goes divisi. Yes I should have a second midi channel and send a phantom note (if I want the transition) or just as I do it now which is creating a second flute joining to play a chord.

I find that there is a balance between the nth degree and actually getting the mix out on time! Hopefully the VI stuff will speed the process somewhat.

Julian

How can we suggest what we need if we even don't know what's inside the Orchestral Strings I AND Orchestral Strings II ??

The Product infos of Orchestral Strings I and II gives you an overview which new articulations are included.

best
Herb

Could I suggest Herb offers some options for what would:

A. Be achievable in the time they have allocated

B. Be a productive and fullfilling use of the session

C. Be useable right out of the box rather than part of something to come

D. Be a useful addition to what is to come on VI strings

E. Reflect what's been expressed on this thread.

Herb your the expert give us some options and we can vote....

otherwise the discussion will still be running in months to come!

thanks

Julian

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

@William said:

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

And we're almost back to what I said on page 1 [[:|]]

DG

@William said:

So the question becomes:

if the recording time is extremely limited, what is most crucial?

to me, the answer is the mp/mf violins legato. One that matches the mp/mf horns legato in expressivo, fluid, lyrical sound.

Of course a full-tilt Horizon Edition Romantic Strings is very desirable. (And yes, very expensive to do I know... [:'(] )

And we're almost back to what I said on page 1 [[:|]]

DG


Exactly. My money is (and has been on VSL), but if someone else comes out with these 'Romantic Strings' - and really nails it on the head, I'd buy it on the first day of release. However, I go back to what I said many pages ago [8-)] - getting this sound must be exceedingly difficult. Proof is that NO ONE has it yet.

Went to the Mormon tabernacle and Orchestra concert last night and was painfully reminded how FAR we still have to go to get 'that romantic string sound' [:'(]

Rob

Well I think we've gone full circle with this now. Romantic strings, romantic strings and more romantic strings!

But I'm personally more sceptic of expecting a magical sound that will have this beautiful romantic effect. I think they could design the sound to be thicker, more vibrato etc but it's going to take much more than that to reach your objective of that romantic string sound you have in mind. I don't think those 2 words "romantic strings"should be tossed around loosely. The complexity of that romantic sound is NOT going to be solved in 3 days of recordings!

I'm still looking forward to having it in my library though.

@Guy said:

Well I think we've gone full circle with this now. Romantic strings, romantic strings and more romantic strings!

But I'm personally more sceptic of expecting a magical sound that will have this beautiful romantic effect. I think they could design the sound to be thicker, more vibrato etc but it's going to take much more than that to reach your objective of that romantic string sound you have in mind. I don't think those 2 words "romantic strings"should be tossed around loosely. The complexity of that romantic sound is NOT going to be solved in 3 days of recordings!

I'm still looking forward to having it in my library though.

Yes, saying it and doing it are two entirely different things - as has been said, if attaining that quality was something simple it would already have been done. I think the main problem with 'romatic strings' is that capturing that sound is so very dependent on the actual context of a performance. A static sampled note simply won't have that emotion all by itself...

I believe it can be done, but that it would take extensive well thought out sessions. Certainly it would make a great Horizon release - possibly the most popular one yet if it really succeeds in its aims!