Based on the information given in the 2 VIP-price threads and the prices shown in the shop, i've done a basic caluculation on the Chamber Strings.

There are 3 options how you could end up having the Chamber Strings VI Extended Version (VI ext ver):

New user:

VI std ver + VI ext ver = €495 + €595 = € 1080

User having bought Horizon Chamber Strings at normal price:

Hz CS + VI std ver + VI ext ver = €815 +€495 +€30 = €1340

User buying Horizon Chamber Strings at reduced Holiday price:

Hz CS + VI std ver + VI ext ver = €530 + €495 +€30 = €1055

The conclusions are:

[list:372d207171]- a user who entered the VIP program at an early stage - with the promise not to have to pay twice for the same sample - will have to pay €285 more than a new user who now gets into the VIP program. That would in that case be the price for the VI itself.

- a user that now buys Hz Chamber Strings at reduced price will end up paying €25 less than a user buying the VI ext vers next year.[/list:u:372d207171]
Assuming no cost for the VI itself, it is the "Holiday price user" that really gets the VIP-pricing. The VIP-promise to the "old user" (never pay twice) is then not valid any more.

Assuming the VI is worth €285, the "old user" gets the VIP pricing, while the "Holiday price user" will get €285 in rebate. But for the "old user", the price for the VI increases with the number of packages you'd buy, which doesn't seem reasonable.

Would that be an accurate description?

Cheers,

Chris

@Billy Rubin said:

This is about the worst business practice I've ever encountered from a company!

As far as I know, Apple does not offer upgrade paths to the old users of their OS...

[6]

You do get a discount from Apple if you upgrade a species of Mac OS, but I think it's relatively small.

Actually I wasn't quite correct in my last post.

This is from Apple's FAQ on Tiger:

@Another User said:

Is there a way to upgrade from Panther to Tiger without paying?
If you purchased a computer on or after April 12th 2005, you are eligible for our Up-to-Date program. The software is free; you pay just £11.99 for shipping and handling.

So it seems their upgrade deals are dependant on when you bought their OS. Other than P+P, it's a free upgrade, but only if you bought it from April 12th onwards. If you clicked on the purchase button at 5 seconds to midnight on April 11th, then you're well and truly shafted!

Personally I think time dependant upgrade deals are less fair than VSL's VIP program.

@Another User said:

Is there a way to upgrade from Panther to Tiger without paying?
If you purchased a computer on or after April 12th 2005, you are eligible for our Up-to-Date program. The software is free; you pay just £11.99 for shipping and handling.

So it seems their upgrade deals are dependant on when you bought their OS. Other than P+P, it's a free upgrade, but only if you bought it from April 12th onwards. If you clicked on the purchase button at 5 seconds to midnight on April 11th, then you're well and truly shafted!

Personally I think time dependant upgrade deals are less fair than VSL's VIP program.

What about if you upgrade from OS9?

DG

Herb,

I think most can understand your need to split up the product into sections (like Standard end Extended). The most important issue however (at least as I see it), is the one that older and loyal customers that have bought a lot of your products in the past seem (at least in some cases) to have to pay more for the same product in the end than a brand new customer would?

Your VIP program clearly guarantees that you never pay twice for the same samples and hopefully you will honor that. However, doing some initial maths on some of the upgrade paths, seem to indicate that in some cases this is exactly what you'll (as an old customer) end up doing.

I've used the example of the Solo Strings (since the info regarding it was available) in another thread:

New customer: Standard VI Solo Strings + Extended VI Solo Strings = €345 + €445 = Total of €790

Old customer: Horizon Solo Strings + Standard VI + Extended VI = €445 + €345 + €30 = Total of €820

Am I completely wrong about this...or does the old customer actually end up paying more for the same product, which means that he/she in this case actually does pay for at least some of the samples twice?

Rodney

New customer
€345 + €445 = €790 full price

Horizon Solo Strings owner gets a discount of €415, that means
€345 + €30 = €375 full price

best
Herb

The final price is okay,

The problem is not to pay for VI and additional samples !
The real problem is that if we dont need (or can't buy) the extended version, we don't have VIP advantage and we have no choice [:'(]

It wasn't the term of VIP program at start (you don't respect your rules).
With this program, the cool thing was to be abble to buy (at our rhythm depending of our possibility) and to be sure to extend my VSL progressivelly and never pay the same samples !
You know that all PRO user will be interessed by the complete and extended package of VI (Be sure your work is great).

You final price is OK if i buy the extended version (Need to play loto), but i can't anymore use the VIP program to update progressively, or i MUST choice to buy the VI one buy one [:(] Not fairplay.

[/b]

@herb said:

New customer
€345 + €445 = €790 full price

Horizon Solo Strings owner gets a discount of €415, that means
€345 + €30 = €375 full price

best
Herb

Herb,

No offence, but you left out the price already payed for the owned Horizon Solo Strings. [:P]

Surely you mean €375 full price plus the original €445 already payed for the Horizon Solo Strings which still totals as €820, which still is more (€30 more) than what a brand new customer has to pay, no?

I know it's "only" €30, but as with all promises and/or guarantees, it's not so much the actual amount as it is a matter of important principle.

R

@DG said:

What about if you upgrade from OS9?

VI and "old" VSL share between 25 and 75% of previous samples, DG.

OSX doesn't, it's a Unix-based system...

[:)]

@DG said:

What about if you upgrade from OS9?

VI and "old" VSL share between 25 and 75% of previous samples, DG.

OSX doesn't, it's a Unix-based system...

[:)]

And Pro Edition can't be loaded into VI......

DG

@Chris said:

a user who entered the VIP program at an early stage - with the promise not to have to pay twice for the same sample - will have to pay €285 more than a new user who now gets into the VIP program. That would in that case be the price for the VI itself.

That is the question.

If Standard Chamber Strings contains 25% of the old samples and Extended Chamber Strings contains 75% of them, it sounds a strange upgrade: if I'm not wrong, you should pay Standard VI (samples) at -25% and Extended VI (samples) at -75%

but

old users would pay the Extended package only a bit more than shipping cost (30 euro or 35 USD), more or less a 95% discount on the Extended package and a 52% discount if you sum Standard + Extended. Seen this way, it could work although you must take the whole packet in order to "save";

but

another question is: how much a sample?

I really hope a VI Opus 3 is on the horizon... [;)]

@herb said:

New customer
€345 + €445 = €790 full price

Horizon Solo Strings owner gets a discount of €415, that means
€345 + €30 = €375 full price

best
Herb

Herb,

No offence, but you left out the price already payed for the owned Horizon Solo Strings. [:P]

Surely you mean €375 full price plus the original €445 already payed for the Horizon Solo Strings which still totals as €820, which still is more (€30 more) than what a brand new customer has to pay, no?

I know it's "only" €30, but as with all promises and/or guarantees, it's not so much the actual amount as it is a matter of important principle.

R


[*-)]:

I am not convinced by the 'dealer-distributor' explanation sorry..

You could set up be a 'dealer' site on your VSL site. So dealers can check what price they have to do for an earlier user.

- User gives his VSL license info.
- Dealer checks on VSL site what rate he has to make (including his commission).
- VSL site is updated about the fact that a purchase has been made for the licensee (so there is no double buying).

Everyone is happy.


I believe there are ways. I'm not buying into the fact that there aren't ways.

"Screw the clients to please the distributors" is a 'no way' for me. This is not defendable Herb.


What it really feels like to me is the following :

Ultimately VSL doesn't really want to risk a situation where many existing users might decide they don't need the extended stuff and decide to stop investing once they have the 'standard S-Cube edition'.

Obviously it's hard to make the practical consequences of such an approach fit with the "no double pay for samples" philosophy...

I would prefer honesty in a sense.
Something like : "Listen folks we have no other financial solution but to impose this to you. Otherwise we'll have to close the business".
or
" Sorry folks, investors are making us betray you. We've checked with our lawyers and we can do this to you without you being able to do anything about it. In the end you can protest as much as you want. Most of you will buy the stuff anyway because our product is brilliant".

I maybe wrong, but this is what it really feels like.
It doesn't feel like you really tried to find a fair solution for early users.

It's all business in the end. Nothing new...

@herb said:

New customer
€345 + €445 = €790 full price

Horizon Solo Strings owner gets a discount of €415, that means
€345 + €30 = €375 full price

best
Herb

Herb,

No offence, but you left out the price already payed for the owned Horizon Solo Strings. [[:P]]

Surely you mean €375 full price plus the original €445 already payed for the Horizon Solo Strings which still totals as €820, which still is more (€30 more) than what a brand new customer has to pay, no?

I know it's "only" €30, but as with all promises and/or guarantees, it's not so much the actual amount as it is a matter of important principle.

R


[*-)]:

I'd be happy to try and explain to you if I knew what it is you don't understand? [[;)]]

Or is it perhaps me wh got something completely wrong? [[:P]]

(I'm at home sick with fever so...)

let me fabulate it very simplified - most forum members expected the symphonic cube to be priced around EUR 10.000. it turned up this is approximately the price, even less: 9.200.
users who already have the pro edition (which originally was EUR 5.490) had to spend another EUR 5.410 to upgrade to the symphonic cube, if they additionally own certain libraries from the horizon series even less.
i cannot see this would be such a bad deal considering you also get a really advanced sampling engine ...
christian

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

@cm said:

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

Now you got me confused. I thought that was exactly the purpose of the VIP pricing. The guarantee you give is that one should never have to pay for the same samples twice.

I'm not talking about the opposite, I'm saying that according to your own VIP guarantee, buying X + upgradde to version Y should not be more expensive than instantly buying version Y.

Not if you already own Z which contains material also included in X. [[;)]]

That's the whole point, it should not be more expensive, because that's what you guarantee in your VIP, isn't it?

R

@cm said:

btw: version X + upgrade to version Y of a product is always more expensive than instantly buying version Y ... i don't know a product or software where the opposite is the case.

With all due respect, but almost no one promise that you'd never pay twice for the sample - except VSL with the VIP-program. The VIP promise to customers is the major discussion point here.

After a few of Herb's posts it isn't clear to me how much/if the VI std ver include new content compared to the Pro/Hor versions.

I haven't made up my mind yet about the pricing structure. Perhaps further clarifications will sort it all out, in addition to some extra fringies for us oldies, no? [H]

Cheers,

Chris

@Rodney_G said:

I'm not talking about the opposite, I'm saying that according to your own VIP guarantee, buying X + upgradde to version Y should not be more expensive than instantly buying version Y.

Not if you already own Z which contains material also included in X. [[;)]]

That's the whole point, it should not be more expensive, because that's what you guarantee in your VIP, isn't it?

R

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

DG

@DG said:

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

What on earth are you talking about?

You seem to be set on finding funny non-logical quirks to all reasoning. Of course what you describe is a completely different matter. I'm talking about the VIP pricing guarantee which states that you shouldn't have to pay for the same samples twice. I.e. upgrading from one level of a product to the next.

Your talking about a platform switch which is a completely different matter.

I'm the one home with fever, yet you seem to be even more delirious. [:P]

No offence, but if you can't stick with the simplest thread of reasoning, don't get into it. You just confuse us other delirious people. [H]

R

@DG said:

Wait a minute; so if I buy the GS version of Epic Horns then I decide to get the K2 version you think that is should be free?

What on earth are you talking about?

You seem to be set on finding funny non-logical quirks to all reasoning. Of course what you describe is a completely different matter. I'm talking about the VIP pricing guarantee which states that you shouldn't have to pay for the same samples twice. I.e. upgrading from one level of a product to the next.

Your talking about a platform switch which is a completely different matter.

I'm the one home with fever, yet you seem to be even more delirious. [:P]

No offence, but if you can't stick with the simplest thread of reasoning, don't get into it. You just confuse us other delirious people. [H]

R

So you think that VI is not a different platform?: What else would you call it when the sample player is different [8-)] Maybe you should wait until you are well again before you involve yourself in grown-up discussions [:)]

DG