I can kind of (from a musically illiterate point of view) understand what you're both saying regarding pitch recognition. I think I can appreciate the principle behind identifying interval etc and major triads and the like above individual notes.

I've always had a difficulty in establishing individual notes. If I take a guess and say, "that's an E" it's probably a C#! And I still need a guitar tuner even after about 10 years of playing. But I tend to recognise sounds and their relationship with other sounds, without ever needing to give it a name. Ok, let me try and paraphrase that a bit better...

When I was younger, I didn’t have music theory books or piano books, so sounds didn't have 'names' to me - with no books telling me what a 'C' was, or where a 'C' was on the keyboard or a stave, how could they? So they were simply just sounds.

I'd try and replicate my favourite themes on the keyboard in the one-note-at-a-time fashion. Now I wouldn't know by listening that the notes for example were "C, E, G." etc, but I'd recognise the sound/tone the notes produced and almost instinctively knew where that sound appeared on a keyboard through a sort of "this key on this part of the keyboard makes this sound" rather than "this note is C6 on the piano" etc. I would also recognise when a note would rise by what we’d refer as a semi-tone or a tone or two tones etc. Again at that time I didn't know they were referred as such, but I recognised the 'gap' in the sounds.

So basically, once I'd identified a rough starting point, I knew by what degree a note may rise or fall. So even if technically I wasn't playing in the right key (maybe I started on a B when it should have been a C), the sequence of notes that followed sounded right.

It's weird because now I know some basics, I went back and looked at the music from these songs, and actually realised I played every single one in the wrong key - however the note progressions (when transposed to what I had actually been playing when I was younger) were all, incredibly, bang on.

Maybe that's why I have such a problem understanding theory. I listen and write by an aural instinct, and the moment I have to attach names or rules/principles to that, I forget it all or get very confused! [8-)]

Jonny

Just think of What a piano tuner have to go through. I also tune pianos, trying to get a perfect fourth to sit with a slightly out of tune fifth by ear can be tumultuosly and time wasting. But It has to be done. This is part of hearing different key's, its not just one thing, Every little minute detail helps in narrowung down the prospect, It is painfull and sensitive, but so whats new, Its not as painfull as having to go out and deal with society in a gig, I'm guessing you're armed with a boat horn on one side of your belt and a fire extinguisher on the other side of your belt and a set of num chucks stashed from behind and your car finder beeper to find your car at the end of the night. That is the only way I'll go out in public again. I agree DG you do have to turn it off, But if you mix or engineer, its back on again, ARGGE
I don't hardly mix anything unless its ready to print. I suppose having the ability to turn it on and off is the key here. I suppose you heard the 10th in the pekofia piece, and the rest turns itself on along wit it. Wilie nelson's "night life" was one of those songs that originally was in somone elses name for years, but after a while it came back to his name, if you analyse it, its in F, you notice its the blues, therfore it tells me somthing, that at one time it was writtin by his pianist possibly and in his name and it never did anything, so they brought it back in will'ys name and it garnered his star element, and marketed its worth. I guess trying to sort out one's time is how much one's able to produce, and we all have control over our own physical ability, different from the next. Time is of essence.

O well, I guess you heard the news, more importantly issues at hand: Nick and jessica broke up . Its all over, Its all over, Its all over the tabloids, I'm having to cope with it, I guess I'll just try taking it one day at a time. The only thing one can do.

@R.K. said:

O well, I guess you heard the news, more importantly issues at hand: Nick and jessica broke up . Its all over, Its all over, Its all over the tabloids, I'm having to cope with it, I guess I'll just try taking it one day at a time. The only thing one can do.

Who are Nick and Jessica?

Sorry Jonny

Didn't mean to be silly. But Jessica & Nick are equivalent to david becken & his wife in England. Although Becken worked a little harder. Just an anology. And who are getting the headlines. these day's.

Aha. Well I hate the Beckhams anyway, hehe. Are they sports starts? Go Panthers ! [*-)]

We stick to the famous words "No sports!" on these pages - thank you. [H]

and with formula one season starting sunday. sacrilege from one of the continent. at least i'd like to see the a1-ring get back up and running...

Regarding being able to write down what you hear in your head, IMO ultimately, it's all about being able to understand what you are hearing. That's the real trick to it. That is why you should never stop studying all aspects of music and, in particular, training your ear.

Whether or not you choose to focus first on relative or absolute pitch, on harmony or compositional techniques or orchestration and arranging methods, (etc., ad infintum) is more a matter of what's availble to you at the time and personal preference. In the end, you must do all of it that you can.

There are many people who are knowledgeable and skilled enough to write perfectly good music, even for full orchestra, without being able to hear a single note of it in their heads and yet know that it will work when played. This is simply a skill which anyone can learn, like carpentry or shoemaking. There is no magical ability invoved in doing this. It is just a matter of knowledge. True, it takes motivation, time, study and practice but, for those who reach that skill level, it really doesn't matter that they are not hearing the music in their heads because they know what they are writing.

The ability to write down what you are hearing and know you got it correct is another such skill. To expand on an anology used earlier, just as you write the words in a sentence without much thought for the techniques involved, you could also write down the words someone else speaks aloud. This is simply taking dictation. You don't have to worry that you won't get it right because you understand what they are saying and you know how to spell, puntuate, etc.. Writing down the notes in music is similar to this. You can certainly learn to do it if you study and practice enough.

This doesn't mean the music will be any good or that it will be well crafted as a composition. That's a different skill just as being able to use a hammer and saw is different to being able to design a sturdy or attractive building.

Still, the point here is that, if you are fortunate to be able to hear music in your head, then the ability to write it down accurately is a matter of the willingness and self-discipline to study and practice until you can reliably do so. This is not a matter of some special talent. It is a skill which can be acquired by just about anyone if they take an oragnized approach to it and stick with it.

Be well,

Poppa

Poppa,

Excellent post. I must humbly disagree, however, with your notion that "there are many people who are knowledgeable and skilled enough to write perfectly good music, even for full orchestra, without being able to hear a single note of it in their heads."

I usually find that results from these kinds of people are akin to painting by numbers. Or driving a car with your eyes closed.

Music like this sounds like all grammar and no poetry; all cliche' and no artistry. Therefore, I would have left out the words "perfectly" and "good" from that sentence.

Now I will admit that if I am feeling uncreative and/or I have a deadline, these skills come in very handy to jump-start and maintain the creative process. Being at the mercy of one's muse is a frustrating situation. Having multiple skill-sets ready to compensate for "feeling uninspired" can actually get the brain back on task to being creative again.

That is the real value of these tools: Serving the inner ear.

It is precisely this reason that I believe that hearing relative pitch levels in your head is the most important step in learning how to decipher the music from within. Without this fundamental element in place I would not be able to even begin to express myself. As a result, it is the skill that is most important in distinguishing between someone that is engaged in the creative process and someone who is on "autopilot," not really saying anything worth hearing--because they themselves cannot hear it!

Clark

@PoppaJOL said:

There are many people who are knowledgeable and skilled enough to write perfectly good music, even for full orchestra, without being able to hear a single note of it in their heads and yet know that it will work when played. This is simply a skill which anyone can learn, like carpentry or shoemaking. There is no magical ability invoved in doing this. It is just a matter of knowledge. True, it takes motivation, time, study and practice but, for those who reach that skill level, it really doesn't matter that they are not hearing the music in their heads because they know what they are writing.

The ability to write down what you are hearing and know you got it correct is another such skill. Be well,

Poppa

I agree with your first point about knowledge, and often these people will limit themselves to "clichés", never any creativity involved... But I'm not so sure about the comparison you make of knowledge VS skill. To me they are both knowledge and skills, one is intellectual knowledge and the other is audio knowledge. I admit they are 2 totally different skills, but in both cases they are knowledge acquirement. Of course the better composer will have both. No disagreement here, just thought I add some nuances of my own. [[;)]]

Clark & Guy:

You both make very good points. The main thing we seem to agree on is that the ability to accurately write down what you hear in your head is something that can be learned with enough work. There are probably many ways to go about achieving this and different people will have their own ideas about which way is best. Thanks for you thoughts.

Be Well,

Poppa

Poppa

I have a lot of respect towards you already. And would appreciate all your years of experience to learn from. And I feel obligated to mention Clarks point on writing from one's head seems very elementary. And would sound very elementary. And that is very true. Not because it cannot be done or there isn't anyone that can write this way but today's society is so much involved in computers softaware ect... that there is really no room to keep one type of learning curve. In which poppa mentions there are many ways of acheiving knowledge. There are so many, we have forgotten about books. There is a request thread thats just been posted on any books on Film, cymetry sounds. I dont know if any one will post any. If they do , I will be the first to purchase. just for the knowledge information. In the old day's mozart and beethoven wrote from their heads, beethoven went deaf and mozart was so skilled as time went by. And they had nothing but a piano and paper. And their extensive involved experience. Where are we going to find these type of people today. Every one is trying to get to the movie industry, because thats were the food is. Pure music is rarer than ever. Because there is no money in it. There is plenty of gangster and hate music from all directions, if you want to call it music. Elementary would just fit it. And so I have tremendous respect to elders in music who are no longer on the playing schedule but have time to sypher and make sense. When i used to play on the road, I didn't even have time to know who wrote the songs I was playing. So over time experience not only gives you more information to use but the exposure to the music thats creating the knowledge in which helps us understand. Remember when the fake books were illegal to purchase ? Education, age and experience has my utmost respect.

Thanks everybody for this interesting and quite enlightening discussion!
It has now lead to me having decided working on a carreer change. I will cut back on my television editing work and put more time and energy in composing (and painting!!).

regards!

@Another User said:

The submission deadline for the 2006 Fauxharmonic Orchestral Composition Contest has been extended to March 18, 2006.

...late january I decided not to work on a submission since I knew I would have a bussy month ahead and would not make the deadline. Had I known this, I might have given up a few nights of sleep to enter anyway.

Ah well... those choises one has to make! [[;)]]
I'd like to know wether another edition of the contest is planned for next year?

@PoppaJOL said:

Regarding being able to write down what you hear in your head, IMO ultimately, it's all about being able to understand what you are hearing. That's the real trick to it. That is why you should never stop studying all aspects of music and, in particular, training your ear.

Whether or not you choose to focus first on relative or absolute pitch, on harmony or compositional techniques or orchestration and arranging methods, (etc., ad infintum) is more a matter of what's availble to you at the time and personal preference. In the end, you must do all of it that you can.

There are many people who are knowledgeable and skilled enough to write perfectly good music, even for full orchestra, without being able to hear a single note of it in their heads and yet know that it will work when played. This is simply a skill which anyone can learn, like carpentry or shoemaking. There is no magical ability invoved in doing this. It is just a matter of knowledge. True, it takes motivation, time, study and practice but, for those who reach that skill level, it really doesn't matter that they are not hearing the music in their heads because they know what they are writing.

The ability to write down what you are hearing and know you got it correct is another such skill. To expand on an anology used earlier, just as you write the words in a sentence without much thought for the techniques involved, you could also write down the words someone else speaks aloud. This is simply taking dictation. You don't have to worry that you won't get it right because you understand what they are saying and you know how to spell, puntuate, etc.. Writing down the notes in music is similar to this. You can certainly learn to do it if you study and practice enough.

This doesn't mean the music will be any good or that it will be well crafted as a composition. That's a different skill just as being able to use a hammer and saw is different to being able to design a sturdy or attractive building.

Still, the point here is that, if you are fortunate to be able to hear music in your head, then the ability to write it down accurately is a matter of the willingness and self-discipline to study and practice until you can reliably do so. This is not a matter of some special talent. It is a skill which can be acquired by just about anyone if they take an oragnized approach to it and stick with it.

Be well,

Poppa

This is a short piano improvisation that a deaf old man played to show how easy it is to write from one's mind. He only used the neapolitan, diminished, & major scales. Its the understanding of music that is rewarding. none of this exerpt has been edited, in fact at the end one looses interest to end quick because of age.
One can take all the knowledge from studying to capture a glorious orchestrational pieces at one's time because one doesn't have to play it but just notate at a comfortable pace. Harmony & Theory are proven by knowledge, so it will work out even if one does not hear it. In-fact somtimes it creates the so called happy accidents, that outsets hearing.

http://web.mac.com/robsnob/iWeb/Site/*.html


I hope the Fauxharmonic Staff will allow this demonstration. Much thanks to them.