Hello

To be honest, I find it very hard to believe that the most important instrument group (strings) would not be just as able regarding performing legato (legato also being one of THE big features of VSL) as the other instruments?

And as far as Opus 1 is concerned, although not being chromatically sampled it's legato shouldn't be an exception, right?

I just ordered Opus 1 (among other VSL products) and I must confess the talk about release controls got me a bit worried as it almost sounds to me like its a matter of simply overlapping releases, not true legato as in recorded transitions between notes?

@DG said:

Herb very kindly posted the steps to make the release time controllable by using the Modwheel. This way I could simulate either legato slurs or bow changes by the length of the release.

Now this really has me worried. I don't want to "simulate" legato slurs, I expect true recorded legato transitions between notes (not portamento glides), but regular slurred legato (with recorded transitions) as in the other instruments. Is that possible with the strings performance legato or not?

Clearing up this matter would be much appreciated.

Thank's in advance

Cheers

Rodney

@Rodney_G said:

Now this really has me worried. I don't want to "simulate" legato slurs, I expect true recorded legato transitions between notes (not portamento glides), but regular slurred legato (with recorded transitions) as in the other instruments. Is that possible with the strings performance legato or not?

Clearing up this matter would be much appreciated.

Thank's in advance

Cheers

Rodney

Look, this is all getting very heavy. There are transition samples, they do work, and they are legato. However when "joining" any samples (principal note/transition to next note) together there must be some sort of overlap to avoid a gap. The release time increase just means that you hear less transition material. It's still there, and we are talking very small increases in release time. The reason that I wanted control over them is that the sound, as in real life, changes according to pitch, timbre and speed. By changing the odd release time I am able to make a much more realistic line. Don't forget that people who actually play the instrument are likely to be much more critical of any sample, and I used to be (in the dark ages) a first rate orchestral violinist [:)]

DG

Thank's for your reply DG.

Now you got me really confused. [:D]

You say there are recorded legato transitions and that they work, but if this is the case, how come so many people in this thread express having problems with it? I even read things like: "Don't use the legato patch for legato" and so on.

I haven't noticed any similar problems being reported with other VSL legato instruments, I've even had the opportunity to try out the legato Flute included in Kontakt 2 by myself and it's as simple as loading it up and start playng...and you have a excellent sounding legato. Why shouldn't I be able to do the exact same thing with the strings?

Also, I don't understand your statement about increasing the release time and having less transition material? Seems to me that there actually is too little transition material...since the problem reported was that it didn't sound connected enough and that there are gaps between the notes?

Sounds to me that what you're suggesting would only take away from the recorded transitions (which is the real recorded connection) and add to the release time (which would result in a "faked" connection)?

Sorry if I misunderstood this completely and I have no intention of being "heavy" about it, I just want to get confirmation that you can achieve just as good sounding legato with the strings as you can with the other instruments (such as the flute).

Cheers

Rodney

@janila said:

I've always thought that the Opus 1 legato strings don't work as nicely as the brass and especially the renowned woodwinds. There is always a gap between the notes no matter how I tweak the parameters in the Performance Tool. The woodwinds are really superb and I just ordered the French Oboe to add three more legato woodwinds to my Opus 1 set. The strings just don't compare in the legato department even if the sound itself is nice.

Can perhaps someone from the VSL team respond to this? If the above is correct...then why? And perhaps more importantly...is there or will there be a proper fix for it?

Thank's in advance [:D]

Cheers

Rodney

Earlier on in this thread Herb said to check out the +RC mapping variations, but these don't seem to be in Opus 1 (there are +RS , but not +RC)...

Am I missing something?

Martin

@janila said:

I've always thought that the Opus 1 legato strings don't work as nicely as the brass and especially the renowned woodwinds. There is always a gap between the notes no matter how I tweak the parameters in the Performance Tool. The woodwinds are really superb and I just ordered the French Oboe to add three more legato woodwinds to my Opus 1 set. The strings just don't compare in the legato department even if the sound itself is nice.

Can perhaps someone from the VSL team respond to this? If the above is correct...then why? And perhaps more importantly...is there or will there be a proper fix for it?

Thank's in advance [:D]

Cheers

RodneyLet me rephrase this by pointing out that all the responses to the original post suggested some kind of action to make the legato better instead of saying "the VSL legato sounds like that, deal with it." To me it seems that the legato strings sound like the example in the beginning of this thread, somewhat disconnected. Most of the time I end up layering samples from VSL and others to get a nice flowing string sound. I might be biased because I play violin myself but that doesn't change the fact that there isn't such a gap in string legato. There isn't a gap in a solo string performance and section sound should be even more continuous as the players don't change the notes exactly simultaneously.

@mosso said:

Earlier on in this thread Herb said to check out the +RC mapping variations, but these don't seem to be in Opus 1 (there are +RS , but not +RC)...

Am I missing something?

Martin

Yes, but regardless...why should one have to get involved with other patches for the strings, when the regular legato patches for the other instruments seems to work fine to just load and play? Sounds a bit inconsistent, doesn't it?

Yeah, I also get the feeling I'm missing something obvious. [:P]

Rodney

@janila said:

Let me rephrase this by pointing out that all the responses to the original post suggested some kind of action to make the legato better instead of saying "the VSL legato sounds like that, deal with it." To me it seems that the legato strings sound like the example in the beginning of this thread, somewhat disconnected. Most of the time I end up layering samples from VSL and others to get a nice flowing string sound. I might be biased because I play violin myself but that doesn't change the fact that there isn't such a gap in string legato. There isn't a gap in a solo string performance and section sound should be even more continuous as the players don't change the notes exactly simultaneously.

Janila

For what it's worth, and although I don't play the Violin myself, I do know what it sounds like...and no...I don't think you're biased one bit. Of course there should be no gap in an legato performance...especially (as you also point out) when it's a section playing.

As with the other perf legato instruments, one should be able to load up a string perf legato patch and get a smooth flowing legato from the start (without having to fiddle around with releases etc). If one can't do that, then perhaps something is wrong with the programming or something else?

Or...I (and perhaps others here) have just missed something very obvious which of course is quite possible. [:P]

I just wish someone from the VSL team would step in and put us out of our misery. [:D]

Rodney

jumping in -
my problem is, I just don't know what I should add here,
I loaded the Opus 1 performance legati of violins and violas and fiddled around more than one hour - and for me it simply works

I use the release control patches and adjust the modwheel value depending to the speed of the legato line, that's all

best
Herb

Everyone seems to be getting their knickers in a twist here. Have all the dissenters tried altering the release control? By its very nature there can't be a gap if you set it long enough, so play around with it until you like what you hear. As Herb said, a lot depends on the speed of the passage, so that's is another reason why it is useful to have control over the release times.
There is one other point to mention. People are saying "I know what a string line sounds like" however, many people are not only more used to synth string lines but they are also used to hearing something with reverb. Are you all using reverb or not?

DG

OK found them (the +RC patches) now - DUH!!!!!!! Can't believe I couldn't see them...

Sorry!!!

Martin

Herb, thank's for taking your time to respond. [:D]

[Edited]

Wrote a longer text here, but cutting down to the truly important stuff. An answer to the 2 following questions are all I really need:

1. Are the legato samples for the strings recorded in the exact same manner as the other legato instruments?

2. If the above is true...would it be possible for me to change the programming of the regular perf legato patch to make it sound the same as other legato instruments (like the flute for example)?

An answer would be much apprecieted.

thank's in advance

Rodney

The strings performance legati are recorded exactly the same way like all other instruments.

The +RC versions are more important for the ensemble strings, because you have a lot of performers on stronger resonating instruments than brass or woodwinds. The release control option is a feature to enable more flexible programmings at different performance speeds.

Different instruments do need different tools.
A solo flute will always be very different than 14 violins.
No body resonance there and only one player - therefore longer overlapping releases are sounding wrong.
For the strings overlapping releases are sounding right. The amount of overlap can vary, depending on the performance speed. That's why a controlable release time is helpful.

And at last we try to offer a consistent instrument database. Sometimes the basic articulations are the first choice, sometimes the release sample versions (double bass tremoli for example), and sometimes the release control versions.
Which mapping version is working best is question of taste, composing style, instrumentation etc.


best
Herb

Thank's again Herb for taking your time once more. [:D]

Ok, I guess I'll just go ahead and pay for the products I ordered. I didn't mean to irritate or offend anyone by my posts, I just got a bit worried when so many seemed to express their concern with the legato of the Opus strings.

Thank's again

Cheers

Rodney