I find it interesting how Elfman is such a disciple of Herrmann, but writes music that is distinctively his own. He is one of the tiny handful of respectable film composers working now. The number of composers today aping John Williams is nauseating, but now Herrmann has been added to the imitation factory. Perhaps the difference is simply in being passionate about something. In other words, Elfman is passionate about Herrmann, has been intensely inspired by him, and has a true musical mind of his own. When that happens, new music is born.

When on the other hand a musical ape hears John Williams (or Herrmann), the same music is reborn. With deformities and not enough physical soundess to survive into adulthood.

By the way Rawmusic, Paul R is just funnin' with you. You have to realize, he is just naturally a charmer. He just has a way with people and can't help being gracious, polite and sensitive to others' needs at all times.

And Bill's hit the nail on the head as usual.

Of the plethora of composers writing today, we can hear a clear distinction between those, who like great composers in the past, learnt styles, emulated others, admired one or two immensely (Beethoven and Handel e.g.) and then embarked on their own musical journey fortified and inspired by those they looked to, and learnt from.
And then there's the rest who copy others with no sense of individuality, eager to cash in on the groundwork and inspiration forged by others.
There are economic and directorial considerations in this, but genuine groundbreakers are, like the past, thin on the ground, and in my opinion, based on the constraints of economic circumstances, opinions of demographic 'experts', and the ever increasing stranglehold the corporate profit driven owners have on the creative industry as a whole, are likely to get even thinner.
There's a positive side to this though.
Technology gives us the opportunity to start sidestepping the industry, and go out on our own. Never before have we had such fine tools to work with, and the ability to take our work to the public without constraint, with our own websites, for example.
It is certainly, after an initial setup cost, cheaper than ever to write and self publish, and maybe that's the direction to go and change the 'rules' to increase our chances.
It's definitely a goal of mine, as past experience with agents, lawyers, and unscrupulous industry owners has opened my eyes to modern compositional reality,and gives me the determination and sheer drive to eliminate them where possible from determining my future.

Regards and success to you all,

Alex.

rawmusic -- paulr can be a forum jerk, in my opinion -- and in my time on these forums, have never seen him get better than having reasonable points of view sprinkled with unnecessary profanity, but was hoping for steady improvement. So the charm and talent others have mentioned must be from some far distant past before I got here too. But you're right, he needs to get the last word in. Last thread of altercations got so bad that it was deleted, and these forums smelled not so good for weeks afterwards. There are others (s ... ) who will probably join in too for some reason defending pr.

polarbear, I too did the egg comparison with a wave editor, and they were definitely the same recording posted twice. Was not impressed, naturally, but one never knows who made the error or why.

[post moved]

@Another User said:

I watched Psycho last night - may not be the best technical music for film ever written (although close)

Hey Paul, just curious what you mean by that. Do you mean that the way it works with the picture isn't as brilliant as the music itself, but almost?

(My favorite is the going up the stairs cue.)

Either Psycho or Vertigo is the best score ever written, one of the two certainly. Technically Psycho is perhaps the more effective - at least in a spectacular, tour de force way. Artistically, as a pure musical creation, Vertigo is the greatest, also some of the best music of any kind written in its time. Though of course it functions perfectly as film accompaniment as well. It is very difficult to judge between the two. And when one starts thinking of the other Herrmann like Hangover Square, or North by Northwest, or On Dangerous Ground, and even more he did, the only thing which stops them from being considered equal is the films themselves which are not quite up to the level of the first two. Though as a reviewer of the weak de Palma-Hitchcock-derivation "Obsession" once put it, Herrmann could make even blank film compelling.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Hey Paul, just curious what you mean by that. Do you mean that the way it works with the picture isn't as brilliant as the music itself, but almost?
(My favorite is the going up the stairs cue.)

Well, maybe Vertigo is technically better Nick - that is a matter of conjecture. What I meant (strapped for time at the last post) is that regardless of a person's taste i.e whether one likes Psycho or not as a movie, the film is a template on how all films could be made. What do I mean by that? Well, you would probably have had all this rammed down your throat at Berklee, I don't know.

The way the film is cut. The way, after cutting, Herrmann uses the techniques he does regarding the cues. The music is obviously nothing but strings all the way through i.e no horns, windwinds etc. The strings are all muted with no vibrato for that cold effect. He employs creepy serialism etc. Loads of filmic teqniques etc - that have been copied over and over again.

Yeah - haha! The going up the stairs with Martin Balsam is a great cue - no vibrato and very ppp until the now almost cliche sliding of the strings to high pitches - perhaps the most famous cue in cinematic history as used in the shower scene. As you know, Hitchcock didn't want any music at all for the shower scene - so this could lead one to think that logically he didn't want any music for the going up the stairs scene. Don't know the answer to that one.

My favourite cue from any film actually on personal taste level is the driving through the rain cue, which is also the opening Saul Bass title with very slight variations - also used when she drives away from the cop when found asleep in the car. Amazing piece of writing. Also the serialistic final cue named Madhouse. The bit with the fly on the hand. A hugely humerous film in places - yes, as I get older, I can see what Hitchcock meant when he said he thought Psycho was actually funny in places.

On a non personal basis, this is surely the most effective music to film ever written in movie history. Who else then, or even now, could have written that score. I would suggest no one. The man was a genius at times, and downright lazy at other times, depending on his mood, which could be 'difficult'.

In terms of effectiveness, which should be paramount to any filmscore writer, Psycho takes it - but reagrding Vertigo, as Bill mentions, then you are talking about a score that is very much part of the actual narrative of the film. Long periods of no dialogue that is filled with the mood Herrmann wishes you feel. On top of that, one has the opening Saul Bass titles, which has arguably the best opening scoring of any movie, leading into the actual chase scene on the rooftops. Quite a staggering piece of work that maybe only musicians can really appreciate, although this music from the start is explaining to the audience they are definitely not watching a comedy, for instance.

North by Northwest just shows huge depth in the writing of the opening titles, again by Saul Bass. Very exciting music and expertly written - and difficult when analysing. Great music to have on in the car - loud. You suddenly find yourself driving at 120 mph along a cliff top - hammered out of your mind. Hugely exhilerating.

All in all, these three examples of Herrmann's work are a must for anyone interested in filmscoring - provided that they don't seperate the film from the music. That is the whole point of this type of writing in the first place.

I would say that even crappy, bollocks-up musicians, like gugliel, would gain a modicum of positive energy from this type of writing - naturally based on limited IQ etc.

I wouldn't know if I had all that rammed down my throat at Berklee either. That was now 25 years ago. [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]] [[[[:|]]]]

William - thanks for opening my eyes to the possibility that Paul is just having a laugh.

Gugliel, thanks for confirming what I actually think - I was beginning to worry I was on my own here. Having seen this kind of thing in other forums I just resigned myself to reading either side of such postings. I am surprised this thread hadn't been moved already. VSL forums and their moderators have tolerance than I thought!

To all concerned, I had no idea (just romantically in love with the idea of music technology having advanced so far) that the two files that started all the sparks flying were the same! I kidded myself that they were different, and told myself I could hear differences in the way certain instruments sounded! What a fool I was! You'll be telling me next that pigs can't fly, and that Paul is a nice guy!

Out of interest, what was the gist of the posting that was moved?

Paul is a nice guy [:P]

Yeah what happened to the commissioning thing? Let us hear some results if possible! [:)]

rawmusic

I enjoyed your posts and yes, PaulR is one of those Englishmen. You've got to watch out for them. It's because they live on that island. It makes them that way. Because of it, they created the British Empire, screwed over most of the world, then founded Monty Python.

Awesome country.

Thank you for the compliment Bill!

And if your island had been the object of waves of invasion over the last two and a half thousand years, you'd be kind of defensive at times too!
Monty Python is only one of a number of culturally outstanding contributions Britain has made to the world, and although we've made some mistakes along the way, being British means we can also be compassionate, and defensive at the same time. Given our history, it also means we travel well, and don't fear visiting others in places far away.
And then there's our sense of humour.............??!!

Regards to you all,

Alex!

Of course, you could always live in America, where we stole our land from the native American Indian, enslaved an entire race of people, and became the wealthiest country in the world because of it!

Well, as far as the actual topic is concerned, the people that would like to commission an orchestral mock-up usually have next to nothing to spend, in my experience. Also, they usually have music that is so unusual or difficult from a performance perspective it would be impossible to sequence the parts and have it sound even the slightest bit real. Part of this reason is that nobody wants to perform it for the individual in question because it would be a nightmare for a real orchestra.

Clark

P.S. Know what I mean, know what I mean, wink, wink, nudge, nudge!

@William said:

rawmusic

I enjoyed your posts and yes, PaulR is one of those Englishmen. You've got to watch out for them. It's because they live on that island. It makes them that way. Because of it, they created the British Empire, screwed over most of the world, then founded Monty Python.

Awesome country.

That's briliant! [[[:D]]] [[[:D]]] [[[:D]]] Herrmann was an honorary Englishman.

@William said:

rawmusic

That's briliant! [[[:D]]] [[[:D]]] [[[:D]]] Herrmann was an honorary Englishman.

Great thread!

He was indeed - even finishing up marrying an Englsh girl and living near Regents Park. An expert on all things English and a first rate commentator on formal English gardens. Nerver really wanted to write filmscore music at all really - wanted to be a conductor of his own orchestra all through his life - from a very early age, with a particular emphasis on composers like Ives, Copland, Vaughan Williams, Elgar etc. Took his scoring jobs seriously though. Total Anglophile - with a New York accent. Strange - but true. We are very glad to have signed the adoption papers. [:D]

Perhaps gugliel and rawmusic will be able to meet up at their local embroidery seminar or sewing classes and discuss - watching their language naturally. Other ladies present, don't forget!

Awesome!