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  3. Disappointing double reeds in Opus 1/2

  • Disappointing double reeds in Opus 1/2

    R
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    I wonder if I am expecting a little too much perfection in my life!

    Firstly let me say that I am a happy and now loyal and committed VSL user, singing it's praises in public, and by peer pressure, generating more customers for the company! I am also very new here, so please be gentle with any replies.

    Having spent a glorious couple of days installing opus 1/2 on my mac, and exploring the depths of what it has to offer, I am delighted with so much of it. There are some bits that stick out as being unbelievably good, like the perf-legato flute and trumpet. Others are a little lack lustre though, like the equivalent clarinet instrument. Some, however, are just plain awful. I speak of the english horn and oboe, two of the lovliest sounding instuments ever created, yet, somehow butt ugly in this package. There are even oboe vibrato samples that are totally out of tune. It can of course be down to personal taste, but I just hate the sound of the oboe/cor anglais player used for the solo samples. They may even be one and the same person. I can recommend a couple of really wonderful sounding players to come and rerecord your samples if you like (joking). Having recently recorded an album of solo oboe and guitar (including appearances by cor anglais and oboe d'amore), I know exactly how they can sound beautiful recorded, with sweetness and sorrow all mixed in.

    I have never spent money on this scale before for a sample library, and I have to say it is a little bit like buying a brand new shiny mercedes that drives wonderfully, only to find nigglingly a couple of miles out of the showroom, that the cigarette lighter doesn't work and the doors squeak.

    Are there any plans to update instrument samples as problems are reported?

    I also noticed some samples beginning with a click - I can't recall specifics, but it was on more than one instrument. I have no problems with editing those down myself if I have to. I would rather have a product that works perfectly out of the box though.

    I am overall delighted with the package, but just a little irked that at present I need to find work-arounds to compensate for shortcomings. I had enough of such work arounds using only MIDI modules where you write to the strength of the particular patch to make it sound good, and hide it away when it doesn't sound good.
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    On the oboe issue: You might already know that there is a seperate package called French Oboe in the Horizon series availible. That was offered and recorded after VSL's initial release where many users claimed they didn't like the sound of the oboe included in the First Edition (and Pro Edition, and therefore also Opus 1/2) - because this is a viennese oboe and not a "regular" french oboe like you might be used to.

    Don't let the VSL staff see you said some samples are totally out of tune! [;)] They take that personally [:D] , hehe, because said they really cared about the tuning in every step. Anyways, if you can give specific examples I'm sure they will have a look into it again and maybe fix that if it's broken.

    Oh, just read about the click-issue. I don't know for sure because you are not giving examples here, but in the woodwinds sometimes the players' key pressing is audible in the samples, this may be a bit disturbing if you are more used to far and ambient recordings, but it's only natural there. If they are of other (read like digital clicks) nature I'd check my latency settings and see if it's reproducable with the same samples triggered and maybe reinstall a specific file if you think it is not the recording itself.

    All the best,
    PolarBear
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    Rushng to VSL's defense, I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing awful in the pro edition. It is an incredibly musical tool. The difference from the opus libraries is in fact quite noticable though, so it really doesn't work to hear you buying the discounted version and then talking about mercedes performance. If you followed the race today, you're really driving a Jordan. You might consider stepping up to the next level, or toning it down a bit...
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    @Martin Bayless said:

    Rushng to VSL's defense, I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing awful in the pro edition. It is an incredibly musical tool. The difference from the opus libraries is in fact quite noticable though, so it really doesn't work to hear you buying the discounted version and then talking about mercedes performance. If you followed the race today, you're really driving a Jordan. You might consider stepping up to the next level, or toning it down a bit...


    Martin-
    He said he was a new user and to be gentle in your reply. I think it is YOU who need to tone it down a bit. Not everyone can afford the $5500+ for the Pro Edition, and shouldn't have to. Not everyone needs anywhere near all the samples included in the Pro edition- I mean Wagner Tuba, Waterphone, Lithophone, Japanese Singing Bowls - come on! Not everyone has use for all the articulations included either.
    As for the oboe, I never have understood why they even recorded the Viennese oboe at all in the first place - isn't there only one orchestra in the world to use it (Vienna Philharmonic)? It is very rare to say the least in orchestras around the world. I know that orchestras not in Vienna don't use the Viennese oboe. And the playing technique of using no vibrato for oboe and english horn is also exceedingly rare - perhaps only in Vienna. I thought they included some French Oboe in the Opus 2 - if they didn't, they should have.
    In VSL's defense, I think that the French Oboe (which has oboe, english horn and Eb clarinet) is the most beautiful sounding sample package ever recorded. Those are my favorite instruments, and I use them all the time.
    To answer your question about updating instrument problems as they arise - no they don't [VSL]. VSL will not update instruments and become very agitated if you ask - so don't even ask - I have learned that here the hard way.
    -mvanbebber
  • cmC
    VSL Team
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    @Another User said:

    will not update instruments and become very agitated if you ask
    ... hmm, maybe your personal view depending on the kind of request - if an instrument is faulty or a sample _really_ out of range it takes usually less than 24 hours for a correction
    christian
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    I never have understood why they even recorded the Viennese oboe at all in the first place
    ... because it's called VIENNA symphonic library? well, could be related to that ... SCNR
    [quote]

    I guess I didn't know there was such a world-wide demand to create the sound of two double-reed instruments of just one orchestra. I thought it might be more useful to create the sound of 99% of the world's orchestras, not the 1% that is Vienna, but I could be wrong... [[;)]] SCNR
    I love VSL, don't get me wrong, I just was pointing out that it was maybe not the most useful instrument to those of us not trying to emulate the very specific sound of the oboe and english horn in the Vienna Philharmonic (which I happen to think is the finest orchestra in the world.) Those are just highly specialized instruments that are maybe not that useful to most buyers of VSL products.
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    How many English Horns are available in the entire VSL library? Just one I think but I'm not sure. Is there a difference between the Opus Eng Horn and the Pro or the French Oboe Package Eng Horn? I would like to know because I want the best one and haven't upgraded to Pro yet.

    Anyone know?

    Thanks,

    Dave Connor
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    I didn't like the VSL Oboe or CA from the Pro Edition and deleted them from my hard drive. However, I'm very happy with the French Oboe and CA, although I would like another "middle" dynamic layer.
    To be fair, I never expected to use VSL for all my instrumental needs, and I find that apart from the obvious Ethnic or drum samples it is now almost always my first choice.

    DG
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    I like the Viennese oboe, if anybody cares.
  • michiM
    VSL Team
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    @mathis said:

    I like the Viennese oboe, if anybody cares.


    we do! [[;)]]
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    To answer Dave's question:

    There are two Cor Anglais' available in VSL - one in the orchestral cube, and one in the French Oboe horizon set. I actually prefer the one in the horizon set.

    On the more general French/Viennese oboe question, before the French Oboe horizon set, I use the Miroslav Vitous oboe because I disliked the sound of the Viennese oboe. I was also a bit irritated not because I bought and paid for a Mercedes with the cigarette lighter missing(Orchestral Cube + Performance Set), but because I was forced to use what I considered inferior samples (Miroslav). The argument at the time (VIENNA Symphonic Library) was not relevant, since I am not Viennese, was not writing music for a Viennese audience, have not visited Vienna, and cannot waltz to save my life. I'm just a bloke who wants to write orchestral music where the wind section doesn't sound a bit wierd to most of the world.

    However, I don't mind paying for the French Oboe horizon set. The oboe is beautiful, and the Eb clarinet and extra Cor Anglais are superb additions.

    In other words, I'm not going to sell my Mercedes because the cigarette lighter is missing - I can buy another cigarette lighter. I'd be a lot more upset if nobody sold a cigarette lighter of the quality I was looking for.

    Let's face it - VSL is an incredible library, maybe a work of art. If it is a work of art, then artists often make decisions you disagree with. It doesn't mean they are wrong, just individuals.
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    VSL Team
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    @nicks@aubergine.co.uk said:

    Let's face it - VSL is an incredible library, maybe a work of art. If it is a work of art, then artists often make decisions you disagree with. It doesn't mean they are wrong, just individuals.


    good to read this point of view, thank you!
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    nicks...

    Thanks for good information. It's sounds like VSL in the matter of a good car manufacturer has made certain options available to the buyer. Very glad to hear of quality of the French Oboe, Cor Anglais, Eb Clar package. All available as perf_leg instruments no doubt.

    Dave Connor
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    @mathis said:

    I like the Viennese oboe, if anybody cares.


    Yeah - I like it for certain types of sound. I won't say nasty - but for a more raw stylistic sound that may be used for less lyrical and harder content - generally in the more serious sounding mode. Like horror, for example.

    Textural, as opposed to outright melodic lines.
  • J
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    I for one am actually greatful for the Viennese oboe - who else but VSL would take the time to make such a thorough sample set of this stylistic variant of the instrument?

    It is a different sound from the usual 'French' style adopted by most. Take some time to learn its idiosyncracies, and you'll find that it can do a great deal that no other sampled oboe can because of those very differences.

    Furthermore, if you get both oboes you will have the instrument covered as thoroughly as could be imagined - and excellent doubling options.

    One last point - I applaud VSL for recognizing that there is life beyond film scoring in the world of composition. [:D] [[;)]]
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    @jc5 said:

    One last point - I applaud VSL for recognizing that there is life beyond film scoring in the world of composition. [:D] [[;)]]


    I would put that on my bumper sticker if I could, but its too long and no one riding behind me would know what the hell VSL was. [:)] But I feel the exact same as you do and am saving eery penny with the spakle of the Pro Edition in my eye.
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    @jc5 said:

    One last point - I applaud VSL for recognizing that there is life beyond film scoring in the world of composition. [:D] [[[;)]]]


    I would put that on my bumper sticker if I could, but its too long and no one riding behind me would know what the hell VSL was. [[:)]] But I feel the exact same as you do and am saving eery penny with the spakle of the Pro Edition in my eye.

    Hehe, if even one person over a period of years read and understood the bumper sticker's message, it will have all been worthwhile. [H]

    To add something to the whole debate about the viennese style being limited only to Vienna - that really is not accurate. In today's climate of 'authentic' performance practice you will find that most major orchestras who boast top players will adapt their playing styles to the repertoire in question. You will find orchestras the world over playing in the viennese style when performing (the ample) repertoire of the viennese school (and composer's influenced by that school - it is not at all out of place to handle, for example, Dvorak in this way).

    No different really from orchestra's using german style rotary trumpets to play Brahms, etc. (wink wink VSL team, where is my rotary trumpet? [[[;)]]] ), or a cimbasso in place of tuba for Verdi, etc., or gut strings for the baroque.

    How does this effect you as a composer in the here in now? It provides you with more options, a richer sound world with which to create. And because it is VSL that is doing the sampling, the instrument will be complete and fully useable. There is nothing to stop you from writing for viennese oboe, rotary trumpet, or cimbassi now - if your music will remain in the realm of samples, then it does not matter how outlandish you get, but even if it is intended for live performance just about any professional orchestra will be able to meet your needs these days.

    Well, enough rambling for now. [[:)]]
  • R
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    thanks for all the support and constructive debate. i really can't afford to buy french oboe right now and am irritated that this is the only way to improve my personal situation, although I accept that it is a feasible way to get what I would love to have. I am actually considering replacing the oboe samples with some played by a friend of mine. I wonder if, by naming the samples exactly the same, whether it might way too complicated to totally replace those samples of oboe and cor on my hard drive.

    Whilst talking about minority instruments (viennese oboe) then why not bring oboe d'amore on the scene. I know of more instances when d'amore could be used than of viennese instruments (just personally of course).

    I totally agree, VSL is a work of art, and groundbreaking in every aspect. I love it already, and will come to love it more and more.

    R