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  • A beginner's question

    M
    M
    Hello everyone, I'm new here *and* a newbie, so I apologize up front!

    I'm a musical theatre director, with a fairly strong music background. I'm getting ready to move across the U.S. and I'm preparing for the expansion of my office/studio. Here's what I am hoping to be able to do... hopefully, someone here will be kind enough to fill in the blanks!

    Part of my job will be to stage musical theatre performances utilizing young cast members. This, coupled with a lack of musicians has led me to think about pre-recording the orchestration for rehearsals and possibly some performances. I use ProTools, and will shortly be updating to a ProTools HD system.

    Now, I don't play piano so my original plan was to input the orchestrations into Finale and then dump the MID. files into ProTools to playback, via midi connection, into synth racks, etc and record that feed back into ProTools. Then I would take that mix and edit/all that fun stuff.

    Unfortunately, the audio quality of that idea is...lacking to say that least. What I now think would be better (?) would be to somehow (?) take the files in Finale and export then to have them playback using the Vienna Symphonic Library samples and record those into ProTools.

    Here is where my lack of experience kicks in. I know next to nothing about how to do this. What should I do, in easy to understand stupid-person language, to make these recordings the highest caliber possible? Money is not the deciding factor here - quality is. It's imperative that if I do use these recordings for some performances, that they be as close to "The real thing" as can be achieved by these means.

    Essentially, just give me your suggestions on how to record these orchestrations, what type of setup, equipment, etc. Which VSL products should I purchase? I think I understand that to run them, you need a sampler installed on one of the machines... which would the best be to use in this situation? Obviously, I'm lacking here! Any and all information is truly appreciated. Feel free to respond on here, or via my email (listed below.)

    Thanks so much in advance, everyone.

    Charlie
    charliepiane@gmail.com
  • D
    D
    If you want the best possible playback then I think that you need to work in a different way (although I'm sure others will disagree). Firstly using a notation program to input the MIDI is a waste of time; you really need to use a sequencer where all the notes can be easily tweaked. You don't need to be a good pianist, just able to play the correct notes very slowly!!! This is where he next problem lies; I would suggest that you should be using a proper sequencer, NOT ProTools to do your MIDI work as the MIDI in PT is far from professional. However, if you want to record (and playback?) from PT then you can. I'm not quite sure why you are thinking of a HD system; is it because you need to be compatible with other people? If not, then you would be better off using a sequencer for everything (Nuendo/Cubase/Logic/DP/Sonar etc.).

    DG
  • M
    M
    Re: Why HD

    I'm jumping ahead to HD because I plan to develope my studio more in the coming months/years and want something that's going to be where the technology is heading. Also, I have several projects with others, and I do need to be compatible with their versions. Might as well kill two birds with one stone.

    If I were to enter the instrumentations in, say Finale, then export the midis, wouldn't I be able to import them into Gigastudio/et al? My piano skills are nowhere near where they should be, so input on a keyboard is probably out of the question. I use Finale quite often for a variety of tasks, that's why I'm hoping to use it - if the quality is there. I do understand your comment about it being a waste of time if you cannot tweak the notes at first.

    I apologize for my lack of information here!

    Charlie
  • D
    D
    You still need a sequencer to play the MIDI file; whether or not you use PT is up to you. FWIW I dumped PT a year ago and it was the best decision that I ever made. You really need to look in some detail as to what you need from a sequencer. If your finished product is a series of audio files to be used for playback then it doesn't matter what you use. If you are going to need to open a "session" in someone else's PT system then it might help to be compatible, although not necessarily. Also you need to make the PC/MAC decision; this will, in part, be governed by what software you want to use, how many computers etc.

    DG
  • P
    P
    I agree with DG, there is a dualism to be watched here. A really good performance can't come from a notation score. I tend to think of sample libraries like instruments. They got to be performed like a real instrument and sometimes it's not even possible to perform all things at once with a single line. There are new rules that don't apply to the composing sector but to sequencing lines. Things like note lengths, choice of articulations, use of availible tools. You can also experience new limits, that won't apply in a real orchestra conducted with proper composed score, then again also new possibilites you might per haps not think of when working with real orchestras. The input of the performance you want to play is as well a crucial part to realism as e.g. the sounds you are using.

    You have the complete control over the orchestra with samples, but also the complete obligation to have everything controlled! A lack thereof will result in a less real-sounding example of a performance: Take e.g. a simple violin line in 4/4 a long sforzando note followed by four staccato notes and a diminuendo on let's say A. In score nontation this is done very quickly and the player will be able to play that easily. If you just export the score you draw into Finale and let this (the technical parts don't matter here now) play with the VSL you'll experience a few things: You can't play all this at once. You have to choose the articulation notes and load them. This is already a step where you introduce realism: The choice will make a difference. You could use e.g. a sustain and staccatos, do the volume changes and expression with the mod wheel. You could specify your choice and selecting the correspondent sforzando and diminuendo patches. For better realism, velocities and note lengths might vary also, even if everything is forte only with no more dynamics. With the VSL you have even more possibilities, as the four staccatos can also be played as so-called "repetitions". As you can see from that, new terms are to be learned also, but you'll grow into it very fast once you tried things out for a few times.

    Once you worked out the parts like this for every instrument, you will have to apply effects, just like a mixing engineer. And again, the choice will add to the overall realism. Composing already with a sequencer has its advantages, as i think a score is easier to produce from the finished sequencer file than vice versa. You also have already the possibility to choose the different things as you go. But then again as far as I understood you have to play compositions with your orchestra.

    The technical side has also different possibilities. Things to check out first are if you're really willing to spent large amounts of money - complete solutions virtually don't have limits, the sky is the ceiling. Very rough figures: they are starting at around $2k for a reasonable and up to $10k for an advanced solution. That amount though can still be doubled easily for "ultimate" realism. I say "ultimate" because it still ain't the real thing, but yes, very close to it. It would be also helpful to know if you want to stay completely with Macs or PCs or if it doesn't matter that much to you which one to use. The choice of a sampler that you'd need will dependent on this, we'll discuss it later if it's only one machine. [;)]

    Just for better understanding, I think it's helpful to think of the sampler as a synth rack. It holds your sounds and you can trigger them from outside and you will get back an audio stream just like the synth racks. You can also adjust a few things in them, but that's not necessary to understand the whole picture. Once you got your audio stream(s) you can go on and mix the different things together.

    Let us know where you're still having problems with understanding and about your platform choice etc.

    All the best,
    PolarBear
  • M
    M
    Thanks for your responses, everyone.

    Re: Computer platforms. I'm not partial to PC or Mac. I've used both, however I currently use ProTools on PC.

    Okay, here's my understanding thus far...feel free to correct me if I am mistaken on any portions.

    I input the sheet music into notation software, and export the midis to a sequencer. Can I then manipulate the midis in the sequencer to add "performance" traits and choices? Then have the sequencer play back the modified score, triggering the machine(s) with my VSL samples on them, via midi, and have that fed into ProTools for editing. Is any of this redundant, not intelligent or..well, bad?

    Is there a better way to go about what I'm wanting to do?

    As for the setup, I have a nice healthy amount to spend on the system. For the complete setup, including my add-ons to ProTools, up to $45-50K if needed.

    Also, for musical theatre (both classic and contemporary) - for the types of samples needed, how many machines do you think I'd need to have running VSL/other samples? Should I get one monster-of-a-machine, or multiple smaller machines? I'm assuming that, based on the variety of the orchestrations, it'll demand a greater number of samples than many types of situations.
  • P
    P
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    Also, for musical theatre (both classic and contemporary) - for the types of samples needed, how many machines do you think I'd need to have running VSL/other samples? Should I get one monster-of-a-machine, or multiple smaller machines? I'm assuming that, based on the variety of the orchestrations, it'll demand a greater number of samples than many types of situations.

    As of now, it's still better getting multiple machines, because you will almost surely hit several limits with what you're heading if you're only using one machine, no matter how powerful. It's not looking like 64bit technology would change that anytime soon to me though it might have a positive effect once all applications are designed for 64bit structure.

    Just to say the least, of course you can do even the biggest orchestration ever seen on one small machine, however the time needed to get a good rendering of everything is enormous. So the more machines you got, the more the composing/editing process speeds up because of less loading times (working with preconfigured templates on running machines) and no need to bounce every second track seperately to an audio file to free up some RAM for more tracks.

    So what to invest in... Have also a look at another thread where I wrote a few things about needed performance. I don't want to leave out on the EXS version for Logic on Mac of VSL, but I don't really know how that exactly works or what is needed, I can only advise you to have a look into the EXS section of this forum. On the PC side, VSL is supporting GigaStudio. Even if the budget is that great, one might still want to spend the money wisely and I think it's save to say PC solution is the less expensive one (taking into account a quite few Mac users built GS boxes).

    What product to choose? There are several choices here from VSL: Pro Edition, First Edition, Horizon Series. The First Edition is full orchestra with plenty of choices. The Pro Edition expands the first edition with new recordings. Later on btw. there will be the Orchestral Cube expanding the Pro Edition. From the Horizon series, the full orchestra is represented by Opus 1, which is an "essential" of the Pro Edition with the most interesting patches, cut down into a little package. The new Opus 2 is expanding Opus 1 as well as the First Edition with more sounds from the Pro Edition. You may want to get the full palette with all choices possible, and that's the Pro Edition Complete Orchestral Package. However if you choose a smaller package, have a look at the discount calculator to see what prices apply if you upgrade your packages to a bigger package (basically - get a price reduce of what you paid already, so you won't loose money starting smaller and upgrading your products later).

    If you're deciding for the Pro Ed. C.O.P. there are still a few volumes from the Horizon series you might want look into, such as the Solo or Chamber Strings, French Oboe, Woodwind Ensembles, Epic Horns, etc. that are not or not fully contained in the full orchestral packages. Depending a bit on how many sample libraries you plan to get, also the need of machines may rise. Starting at 3-5 seperate PCs for Pro Ed. in GigaStudio format you might feel more comfortable with having even more once you got all different packages plus other sample libraries and want them up and running at your fingertips. At this point also the additional hardware like mixers, switches and so on around the PCs is getting a cost factor to be considered though.

    I hope that answered some more of your valid questions!
    PolarBear
  • M
    M
    The end of your last post appears to be cut off. Was that the end of your entry, or did it run out of space? I'm interested in what you're saying..hence my asking! Thanks!

    Also, if I do go the route of notating it in, say, Finale and exporting the Midi files to do manipulation in the sequencer.. at the end of the day, will I be getting a quality sounding piece? Or will it be *noticeably* different than if it were played by a midi keyboard triggering the sounds? I suppose it relies a lot on how much manipulation I do!

    If I was going the Pro Ed. C.O.P. and purchasing some of hte other Horizon productions, how many machines would be adequate for this system?

    Also, after all the data is in the sequencer.. Does it export all the midi data to all the instruments (on the various machines) at once, or do I layer the different tracks into the recording program?

    Additionally, how are the electric guitars in the Overdrive kit (and the classic in it's kit)? A lot of the contemporary musical theatre I will be doing has rock guitars (think Rent, Wild Party, or Tick, Tick Boom. Or, for more familar names, Hair and The Wiz) - so would it be better to rely on VSL for all these sounds, or look at some outside solutions as well? Thanks again, so much.

    Charlie
  • P
    P
    I didn't write a lot after that, though it really got cut off somehow... Guess my post was too lengthy, hehe. I'll try to rephrase what I said.

    [Horizon series volumes like (...) Epic Horns, etc.] that are not or not fully contained in the Pro Edition. Depending on your workflow and how often you are willing to bounce individual midi tracks before a final result or if you're not wanting that at all and have everything at your fingertips to go straight forward. As I said in the other thread I linked above a quite common (if one can say that) setup is to have the machines divided into sections strings, brass, woodwinds and percussion - so that would make 4 PCs. You could also get away with 3 PCs with spreading one of the sections over the 3 PCs to get the most performance. If you plan to get several Horizon volumes a 5th PC might be well spent money, loading additional sounds into that.

    The problem here is not the lack of processing power, but the RAM limits. The amount of availible RAM determines how many patches you can load at a time, and if you want to do everything at once and still be able to edit all things at all points of your production, you got to have more machines, because Giga will only be able to make use of the max of 2GB RAM per machine as of now. Depending how large your template is (a preconfigured setup for your machines to load the most needed sound with a few clicks) you have more or less space availible to additionally load project-specific sounds.

    I'd not start with a too big setup, and first look how to get used to everything that's new. You might find yourself later with having spend too much when it wasn't needed. You have always the possibility to get a new machine (for a lower price at a later point) if it's needed. You maybe will spend less money in the end if you plan on expanding, like getting an 8-port switch for network or getting a bigger MIDI-interface, even if you only get 4 PCs right now.

    There's nothing wrong with notating your sequence in Finale, I just tried to show you the other possibilites I could think of that may get you a faster result. However if you don't feel any comfortable with piano playing I doubt they will, the sounds won't differ, you'll just enter the values of a performance manually instead of performing it yourself. I'm doing a lot of mouse work myself in piano roll view not playing in things, and it's also working - but then again I'm not having deadlines to meet. Yes you can get a quality sounding piece at the end of a day. A symphony will definately take more than a day - and as with almost everything you can spend endless time with fixing and manipulating things.

    It is advisable you create seperate channels in your recording program to seperate different orchestra groups to apply needed effects and hall accordingly only to the instruments where you want it. There are also ways to do this in GigaStudio already, or to route that through audio outs and ins directly into your recording program just as you go and manipulate the midi. You could also go one by one and treat each voice seperately and also at a later point than if that's more what you're looking for.

    I only have heard the demos for Overdrive and Classical Guitar on the website, and read some opinions from people here on the board, they seem to be pleased with it. I'd question though if it's really in relation with the work you'd invest for it as an exposed instrument as capable guitar players are widely availible for real performance. In my opinion it's nevertheless a very good value for its price.

    Hope this answers a few more of your valid questions!
    PolarBear