"The sample will always have this certain "built in" musicality --- an artistic consciousness that the player(s) and the producer condensed from the myriad of possibilities into this very recording." - Dietz

This is exactly what I was talking about originally. Not only that, but you hear in a sample that artistic consciousness AND years of study and practice brought to a point of extreme focus and concentration of sound.

I remember a poor sample library I once got, of some saxophones, which was basically riffs but they decided to do some single note samples also. So these guys got out their horns, and blew some scales. Completely unmusical honks one right after another. This was useless as samples unless you wanted to record a flock of geese flying overhead, but it COULD be used in the so-called "atomized" waveform-destroying synthetic approach, because far more is done by the machinery of the synthesizer and far less is done by the musician who recorded the original tones - if there even WAS a musician.

However, with samples, you must obtain the very best musician, and he must be recorded flawlessly, and this quality must be maintained all throughout the process because that original sound is what you are going after. That is what I am trying to obtain when I score for a section of violins using samples - an actual group of extremely good violin players doing what they do and CAPTURED as they do it.

One other thing - Nick, post that clarinet right here playing a fluid, legato line. I know all about how the VSL legato clarinet sounds and would enjoy hearing the comparison.

I'm trying the Synful Orchestra ... not bad but basic : no pizzicato, no con sordino, no true legato, [...] only sustain ... staccato notes are a short sustain.

William, I'll see what I can do later this week.

Dietz, I agree - you do have to play it. But I also think that people make a bigger deal out of that than is necessary, because it's not all that difficult to coordinate blowing and playing a note on the keyboard. On the other hand, I've been doing that for a long time - I started recorder when I was four years old - so maybe some people do find it harder than I think.

Someone asked about breath controllers. They're pressure-sensitive transducers. You blow into them and get another MIDI controller. They require a breath controller input, as found on Kurzweil KXXX synths, drumKATs, or Anatek Wind Converter boxes.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Someone asked about breath controllers. They're pressure-sensitive transducers. You blow into them and get another MIDI controller. They require a breath controller input, as found on Kurzweil KXXX synths, drumKATs, or Anatek Wind Converter boxes.

I have 3 "assignable" inputs, but these may not work. I'll report when I have more time.

DG

@Nick Batzdorf said:

[...] I started recorder when I was four years old - so maybe some people do find it harder than I think. [...]

Ok, so this gives you a clear competitive egde - I started playing recorder when I was 6 years old ;-] ...

... I wasn't talking about managing the coordination between the breath-controller and the keyboard. To my opinion, you will have to learn the specific articulations for every "patch" of the synth - as soon as you plan to sound "authentic" intruments.

/Dietz

Yeah, it takes a little practice with each sound, because they all respond differently (unlike VSL, you can't just change patches and use the same MIDI). I haven't found that terribly difficult, but it's definitely a factor.

And you're right that it's necessary to think like the instrument you're emulating. In practice, I find that more a matter of what not to play than what to play. Tuba isn't as agile as bassoon, in other words. [[:)]]

The exception is sax (not classical sax, of course, but jazz/rock/etc.). Those characteristic articulations and subtle bends, etc. are tricky. I don't have that down very well, so it usually sounds silly. On the other hand, I haven't spent a lot of time listening to saxes with that in mind, so it's my fault. [[:)]]

@jbm said:

Really [paynterr]? You find this more "fake" than the Synful stuff? For me, the problem with the Synful pieces is in the staccato notes -- they really sound like truncated long notes, to me...

But I suppose it makes sense, considering the exaggerated use of ostinati -- the samples are literally repeated, in close proximity, a number of times. Maybe that's not what you're talking about... I don't know. Can you be more specific? To me, these instruments sound pretty real, but then, this is only my composing mock-up. So it's very hard for me to hear it objectively...

J.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the piece, but a well recorded sample lib like VSL could sound more fake, more easily than, say, this new synful tool. Why? Well, because synful creates what is essentially a unique sound with a each play of the key, it is a lot easier to get rid of the machine gun effect.
Although I agree that the quality of VSL is far superior, it cannot match the stitching together of notes that synful manages, therefore the quality can quickly give way to the expressiveness (or something like that) so that synful sounds more real.
I must admit, I love the idea of being able to have a single track per instrument/player in the orchestra and just letting them get on with playing the music I've written, me directing them roughly in the direction of how loud to play etc. but generally leaving the 'performance' up to them. ANd I'd like to see this work for ensembles too. Why not make ensembles from individual instruments, making them as large or small as you want. Follow the real-world analogies. You want 8 horns, then use 8 instruments. YOu want 50 string players, then there you go. It also means that when you split the orchestra, you don't have the problems you have at the moment. ANd since it is a case of cut-and-paste when it comes to giving them something to play (using a few random settings on each track to ensure they are slightly different to each other).
Compare this with the ever-increasing sample library size of VSL. This is probably out of place on VSL, but since I've already given them by 3.5k sterling...
Interestingly enough, I've never written as little music since getting VSL. THis is partly a function of using Halion and converting the samples, partly a function of Halion being buggy, but mainly a function of just having too much there in my face, too much choice. I think VSL was probably a mistake for me.
I am an IT Architect by profession and I hate to have to program my music too. That's my day job, not my hobby and that is what it feels like what with having to have multiple tracks just for the same legato instrument, not to mention multiple other tracks for other articulations, all loading into memory. For me, the complexity of VSL and the sheer choices I am given (not to mention having to run performance tool out of the DAW) is just too much hassle and actually puts me off using it.
There has to be a better way and I believe this is it... after all, some of these instruments are not that complicated to model, especially if you can do what convolusion reverbs do, that is sample the characteristics of the instrument rather than the actual notes.
Just my thoughts at the end of the year...
Happy new year to all here... and give a little thought and money to the SE Asia crisis if you can.


Could not have put it any better myself. VSL's samples are bar none this best, but if I could get the same 'end results' in half the time, well....

Rob

@jbm said:

Really [paynterr]? You find this more "fake" than the Synful stuff? For me, the problem with the Synful pieces is in the staccato notes -- they really sound like truncated long notes, to me...

But I suppose it makes sense, considering the exaggerated use of ostinati -- the samples are literally repeated, in close proximity, a number of times. Maybe that's not what you're talking about... I don't know. Can you be more specific? To me, these instruments sound pretty real, but then, this is only my composing mock-up. So it's very hard for me to hear it objectively...

J.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the piece, but a well recorded sample lib like VSL could sound more fake, more easily than, say, this new synful tool. Why? Well, because synful creates what is essentially a unique sound with a each play of the key, it is a lot easier to get rid of the machine gun effect.
Although I agree that the quality of VSL is far superior, it cannot match the stitching together of notes that synful manages, therefore the quality can quickly give way to the expressiveness (or something like that) so that synful sounds more real.
I must admit, I love the idea of being able to have a single track per instrument/player in the orchestra and just letting them get on with playing the music I've written, me directing them roughly in the direction of how loud to play etc. but generally leaving the 'performance' up to them. ANd I'd like to see this work for ensembles too. Why not make ensembles from individual instruments, making them as large or small as you want. Follow the real-world analogies. You want 8 horns, then use 8 instruments. YOu want 50 string players, then there you go. It also means that when you split the orchestra, you don't have the problems you have at the moment. ANd since it is a case of cut-and-paste when it comes to giving them something to play (using a few random settings on each track to ensure they are slightly different to each other).
Compare this with the ever-increasing sample library size of VSL. This is probably out of place on VSL, but since I've already given them by 3.5k sterling...
Interestingly enough, I've never written as little music since getting VSL. THis is partly a function of using Halion and converting the samples, partly a function of Halion being buggy, but mainly a function of just having too much there in my face, too much choice. I think VSL was probably a mistake for me.
I am an IT Architect by profession and I hate to have to program my music too. That's my day job, not my hobby and that is what it feels like what with having to have multiple tracks just for the same legato instrument, not to mention multiple other tracks for other articulations, all loading into memory. For me, the complexity of VSL and the sheer choices I am given (not to mention having to run performance tool out of the DAW) is just too much hassle and actually puts me off using it.
There has to be a better way and I believe this is it... after all, some of these instruments are not that complicated to model, especially if you can do what convolusion reverbs do, that is sample the characteristics of the instrument rather than the actual notes.
Just my thoughts at the end of the year...
Happy new year to all here... and give a little thought and money to the SE Asia crisis if you can.


Could not have put it any better myself. VSL's samples are bar none this best, but if I could get the same 'end results' in half the time, well....

Now like any other consumer - I want my cake and eat it too. Give me the ease of working in Synful with the sustain sounds or VSL - sounds easy enough, Herb? [:D]

Rob

No problem, Rob.
Two words: "Symphonic Cube"

best
Herb

@Nick Batzdorf said:

...Tuba isn't as agile as bassoon, in other words. [:)]

Not only is the tuba as agile if not more agile than the bassoon, it has a wider range of notes, a wider dynamic range, is more versatile across musical styles, sounds nicer, looks nicer, feels nicer and quite frankly smells nicer to.

Nuff said!

DaveTubaKIng

@Another User said:

No problem, Rob.
Two words: "Symphonic Cube"

Stop the hurting! When! [:D]

@Another User said:

No problem, Rob.
Two words: "Symphonic Cube"

Stop the hurting! When! [:D]


Herb -

You got to give us more details than that!! I have this money burning a whole in my pocket for Synful. I'll wait if you can give me a good reason to do so (details about SC???). If there was ever a time to release info that would be now. I will try out Synful for 15 days and see what all the fuss is about. The violin expressiveness and more important ease and speed of use are probably worth the price alone. But we shall see.

rob

DaveTK, is that really true that tuba is as agile as a faggotte?

If so, my sincere apologies all those drunken guys dressed up in lederhosen with funny hats playing oom-pah...

[6]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

DaveTK, is that really true that tuba is as agile as a faggotte?

If so, my sincere apologies all those drunken guys dressed up in lederhosen with funny hats playing oom-pah...

[6]

Yes - a tuba is as agile as the trumpet or horn - the playing technique is exactly the same - it's just a question of how fast you can press those valves either piston or rotary and coordinate it with tongueing technique - tuba players can double and triple tongue like other brass - a good tuba player can play any of the Arban studies and variations including the famous Carnival of Venice as well as any good trumpet player.

Anything Winton Marsallis can do Roger Bobo can do.

It's not a question of limited ability on the part of tubas it's a question of limited imagination on the part of comopsers/arrangers.

It's difficult to think of any orchestral example of a tuba part expoiting this potential. the best I can think of are some of Havergal Brian's symphonies. But delve into the brass band repertorie and you will find endless contest scores where the four tubas perform feets of extraordinary technical brilliance.

DTK

I always figured it took a long time for the air to get through all that plumbing.

But I stand corrected.

Nick,

It does, (marginally), but as Dave says, a great Tuba player can coordinate the delay between tonguing, valving, and meshing with the other instruments without problem.

Also, it's not the air that comes out the bell so much as the sound. And sound travels at around 600MPH at one atmospheric pressure. So the moment you make a sound on one end of the Tuba (lips buzzing/flapping), it is audible fairly instantly at the other end. However, the resonance and vibration may take some time to build up, as it does in any instrument.

Evan Evans

Thank you sir. I now know more than I knew about tuba this morning. [:)]

@Another User said:

For me, the main difference between a (good) sample and (even the best) sythesized sound is easy to define: The sample will always have this certain "built in" musicality --- an artistic consciousness that the player(s) and the producer condensed from the myriad of possibilities into this very recording. You would have to know the Do's and Dont's of _each_ instrument as thoroughly as the highly specialized players from the sampling-sessions to achieve a similar result from a synthesized source. It may look enticing, but in the end you're spoilt for choice.

/Dietz (with his private opinion)

You know, the penny dropped during a conversation I had with Sharmy this afternoon about his recent Synful demo and another one he did using samples. I commented that the sampled violin had a certain life the other one didn't have (other factors aside).

Then I remembered what Dietz said in the quote above, and it dawned on me that this is what he's talking about. It's the same thing I liked about the Spectrasonics Bass Legends library ten years ago - they're alive.

Okay, I get it.

Thanks for bringing that up again, Nick. I read a good thought today on the NS-forum:

"Do you want to be the player or the conductor?"

... most of the time both, I would say, but in case of an virtual _orchestra_, my preference would distinctively tend to "conductor".

/Dietz

"Do you want to be the player or the conductor?"

hey, that was me! (scroll down a bit, 3rd from the bottom)

To me, VSL is the best library out there. It's strings, brass, and woodwinds are unbeatable. But in the discussion of solo instruments, this argument that samples somehow contain the "artistry of the performer" are silly. When I listen to most VSL solo violin demos, it's this contrived Frankenstein performance that is completely unmusical. And mind you, VSL's solo violin is the best out there. Try EWQL's violin. much worse! Even Garritan's new "violin" is awful. But even with VSL, the phrasing is very much like a honking accordion. It's literally like someone took a real violin performance audio file, chopped up all the individual notes, and then rearranged them into a new melody. But wait - that's what sampling is! When I hear VSL solo violin, It's like I've turned schizophrenic and all these random passages come out of nowhere, disconnected, and artificial with the same ones triggered over and over. Where's the artistry of that?? It's like saying a beautiful woman is just as beautiful chopped up into hunks and resown together in the wrong order.

I don't know why woodwinds and brass solo instruments don't suffer the same problem. Probably because of the bowing which is impossible to duplicate. Solo stringed instruments simply don't lend themselves to traditional sample techniques.

And for the record, Synful, which I find to be the most amazing jaw-droppingly good plugin ever, does contain samples for the "artistry" addicts out there. It simply slops them all together in a way that is musically viable. I want the algorithm to create the phrasing for me cuz pure samples will never get you there.

Anyway, thx for letting me rant. I don't want to piss anyone off here, cuz I'll need your help once I purchase my VSL set up! [:P] Btw, I'm a violinist, played in symphony orchestras in school, and have Opus1 on my must-have wishlist.