Uhm - Paynterr, please be aware that we are on the pages of the Vienna Symphonic Library, so you will see a lot of people biased towards sampled instruments here, by definition. We don't have to be well-balanced, so plaese don't consider these opinions to be "snobbery".

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

I'm sorry, but I would never use waveforms that were re-synthesized of an electrified hampster. I prefer samples. The Sopranino Hampster (D flat Rodentophone) is a remarkably expressive sound and must be represented authentically.

@Dietz said:

Uhm - Paynterr, please be aware that we are on the pages of the Vienna Symphonic Library, so you will see a lot of people biased towards sampled instruments here, by definition. We don't have to be well-balanced, so plaese don't consider these opinions to be "snobbery".

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Good point. At this stage, I couldn't see using Synful as anything but a nice aid for Finale or whatever. I like its expressiveness though- especially being able to switch articulations simply by adjusting my technique at the keyboard while playing in a line. But sonically, its Bb clarinet isn't anywhere near as gorgeous as the VSL legato clarinet.

@William said:

I'm sorry, but I would never use waveforms that were re-synthesized of an electrified hampster. I prefer samples. The Sopranino Hampster (D flat Rodentophone) is a remarkably expressive sound and must be represented authentically.

[;)] Happy Gnaw Year!

Thank you paynter. I'm celebrating by wiring up one of my other favorite instruments - the Alto Gerbilhorn. Makes an excellent trio with two Rodentophones.

When is VSL ever going to sample these? Jeez! What ARE they waiting for? I am running out of feed!

@William said:

I like the fact that the notes in samples are actually played rather than synthesized, but the problem ultimately is that there is never enough of them, whether one is trying to find the ideal expression needed by a composition, or having each note played be an alternate sample. And this is even with the hundreds of thousands being recorded by the VSL.

I agree. At the moment I am rushing through a demo and having to compromise on the sound due to the time that it takes to piece together lots of little samples to make something work. In fact I'm not even using the VSL Timpani because of this. While it sounds great when it all works, I need to be able to play one note and (for example) the roll to continue until I take my finger off it, crescendo via a crossfade (modwheel) to a different velocity roll etc. With my "old" samples I can do this live, however I have not yet found a way to do this with VSL. However, surely this is a case where with some sort of synthisis (Performance Tool...!) crossfading to 3 second, 4 second (etc.) rolls could be done by whatever timestretching is done in (pause for spitting) Synful.

I think that some sort of hybrid will possibly be the next phase of sampling, although I certainly agree that the ultimate quality is based on the original sounds sampled.

Why am I typing when I should be working? [:O]ops:

DG

William:

I'm excited about this new technology/techniques, as it brings to our environment audio which once could only be done at professional studio's ($$$) and the hiring of orchestras (more $$$).

Now that there are options of samples & synths, you can achieve fantastic results from home/small studio at an affordable budget...

This gives 'The Little Guys' more possibilities for work and other achievements.

Unless you have thousands of dollars hiring an orchestra, then these libraries are certainly worth it (including synths).

For those that work, less expenses means more money in your pocket, so why not take advantage of Synths as well (If it achieves the results you're after) ?

Regards, Max.

For me, the main difference between a (good) sample and (even the best) sythesized sound is easy to define: The sample will always have this certain "built in" musicality --- an artistic consciousness that the player(s) and the producer condensed from the myriad of possibilities into this very recording. You would have to know the Do's and Dont's of _each_ instrument as thoroughly as the highly specialized players from the sampling-sessions to achieve a similar result from a synthesized source. It may look enticing, but in the end you're spoilt for choice.

/Dietz (with his private opinion)

Hey Dietz, have you ever tried a VL1? [:)]

It can't do what VSL can do. Most of the sounds it comes with - and it's very difficult to program - are way off. I can't think of any ensemble sounds it produces that are at all usable. Forget about the strings (some of them are nice, but they sound like something different). It only has one- or two-note polyphony.

But the sounds that do work, such as the muted trumpet, clarinet, harmonica, "chiffy" jazz flute...those sounds really do have the same effect as the real instrument when you use a wind or breath controller, and I have to say it's more expressive than playing samples. All the note-to-note transitions, subtle tonal nuances, etc. are there.

If you play the jazz flute really quietly, for example, you get fingers-on-pad sounds. Then as you gradually play harder, the instrument responds just like a flute, until you overblow and get the "chiff." All that isn't on/off/next layer please, the transitions are continuous. Each note sounds different. You can play notes in the same breath/bow, suddenly change timbre by blowing harder and softer, and so on. It knows if you suddenly blow hard or if you gradually breathe in.

In other words, it does everything a real instrument does. Of course you can easily produce uncharacteristic parts, but you really don't have to understand a tuba or flute in great depth to play tube- or flute-ish parts.

Obviously I'm not saying it's a replacement for VSL, because it's strictly a solo instrument and it does totally different things. But eleven years after its introduction, it's still beyond awesome. People are staggered by how real it sounds when I play it.

Hey Nick,

I was actually a huge admirer of the VL-1 when I was researching phymod stuff... I never got my hands on one, and I'd be pretty much stumped when it comes to getting all those specialized sound out of it, but I love the idea behind the technology. Also, probably the most realistic clarinet I've ever heard was done on a VL-1. So, I am a fan. The only problem is configuring all those subtle controllers in a way that would work reasonably well from score... not easy. Also, there's polyphony... I do wish someone could manage to bring phymod back to life, with some sort of interpretive front-end to help performance. I mean, all those little extended techniques I love so much can actually be produced on a phymod instrument, because you're actually duplicating the physical conditions required to produce them on the real thing! It is a very exciting technology... too bad it croaked! (Has anybody played around with Logic Pro's new phymod instrument?)

J.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Hey Dietz, have you ever tried a VL1? [:)]
[...]

Yes, and I even programmed for it's little brother, the VL-70. Incredible technology. But I'm sure that you are completely aware of the fact that you actually have to develop new skills for each and every setting of this synth to _really_ master it - just as it were a new instrument of its own.

This is what I tried to communicate with my reply above: Good samples have this mastery "built in", so to speak.

... so many instruments, so little time ... [+o(]

All the best,

/Dietz

@Nick Batzdorf said:

But the sounds that do work, such as the muted trumpet, clarinet, harmonica, "chiffy" jazz flute...those sounds really do have the same effect as the real instrument when you use a wind or breath controller, and I have to say it's more expressive than playing samples. All the note-to-note transitions, subtle tonal nuances, etc. are there.

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a breath controller? I have read bits and pieces about it (regarding the DX7) but have no clear picture in my head of how one should be used and for what purpose. Someone, please enlighten me [*-)]

DG

@DG said:

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a breath controller? I have read bits and pieces about it (regarding the DX7) but have no clear picture in my head of how one should be used and for what purpose. Someone, please enlighten me [*-)]

DG

Recently there was a quite comprehensive thread about it. Just search this forum.

@paynterr said:

Well, I have to say that I am very impressed with what I've heard from synful and am considering using it instead of VSL performance/pro. Why? Not because I think it sounds quite as good yet... but because it is *SO* much easier to compose using.

That's a good point. I use various sample libraries in addition to VSL; the differences in sound are a matter of taste or preference ....but it's a lot more fun to get results quickly. And I think we all know that VSL, for all its beauty and realism, is not the fastest and most accessible of libraries. For things I want -or need- to do quickly, I don't always use VSL.

If someone could design an interface which would make choosing the appropriate VSL patches more intuitive, or even translating a written score into the right sounds....now that would be interesting.

Nigel

@DG said:

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a breath controller? I have read bits and pieces about it (regarding the DX7) but have no clear picture in my head of how one should be used and for what purpose. Someone, please enlighten me [*-)]

DG

Recently there was a quite comprehensive thread about it. Just search this forum.

Ah I've found it, thanks; I was searching for breath controll-ER rather than breath control [:O]ops: I'll investigate this when I have more time, as it sounds very interesting.

DG

"The sample will always have this certain "built in" musicality --- an artistic consciousness that the player(s) and the producer condensed from the myriad of possibilities into this very recording." - Dietz

This is exactly what I was talking about originally. Not only that, but you hear in a sample that artistic consciousness AND years of study and practice brought to a point of extreme focus and concentration of sound.

I remember a poor sample library I once got, of some saxophones, which was basically riffs but they decided to do some single note samples also. So these guys got out their horns, and blew some scales. Completely unmusical honks one right after another. This was useless as samples unless you wanted to record a flock of geese flying overhead, but it COULD be used in the so-called "atomized" waveform-destroying synthetic approach, because far more is done by the machinery of the synthesizer and far less is done by the musician who recorded the original tones - if there even WAS a musician.

However, with samples, you must obtain the very best musician, and he must be recorded flawlessly, and this quality must be maintained all throughout the process because that original sound is what you are going after. That is what I am trying to obtain when I score for a section of violins using samples - an actual group of extremely good violin players doing what they do and CAPTURED as they do it.

One other thing - Nick, post that clarinet right here playing a fluid, legato line. I know all about how the VSL legato clarinet sounds and would enjoy hearing the comparison.

I'm trying the Synful Orchestra ... not bad but basic : no pizzicato, no con sordino, no true legato, [...] only sustain ... staccato notes are a short sustain.

William, I'll see what I can do later this week.

Dietz, I agree - you do have to play it. But I also think that people make a bigger deal out of that than is necessary, because it's not all that difficult to coordinate blowing and playing a note on the keyboard. On the other hand, I've been doing that for a long time - I started recorder when I was four years old - so maybe some people do find it harder than I think.

Someone asked about breath controllers. They're pressure-sensitive transducers. You blow into them and get another MIDI controller. They require a breath controller input, as found on Kurzweil KXXX synths, drumKATs, or Anatek Wind Converter boxes.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Someone asked about breath controllers. They're pressure-sensitive transducers. You blow into them and get another MIDI controller. They require a breath controller input, as found on Kurzweil KXXX synths, drumKATs, or Anatek Wind Converter boxes.

I have 3 "assignable" inputs, but these may not work. I'll report when I have more time.

DG

@Nick Batzdorf said:

[...] I started recorder when I was four years old - so maybe some people do find it harder than I think. [...]

Ok, so this gives you a clear competitive egde - I started playing recorder when I was 6 years old ;-] ...

... I wasn't talking about managing the coordination between the breath-controller and the keyboard. To my opinion, you will have to learn the specific articulations for every "patch" of the synth - as soon as you plan to sound "authentic" intruments.

/Dietz