Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.Don't forget Kenny G, and Hans Zimmer (one of the most gifted twits of our time).
Evan Evans
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Evan Evans
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BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.
Thanks. He was a very understated person. I have a story that Lalo told me once while I was at his place in reciprocal lessons with him (Music and Computers respectively [;)] ). He said, on days where Bill and him where playing opposite sets, they'd sit together on break and not say a word, eating dinner or what not. Then suddenly at the exact same moment they would burst into fantastic and electrifying dialogue on EXACTLY the same subject as if they had been reading each other's minds the whole time. my dad had the kind of mild nature that seemingly allows one to connect to the essence of the Universe and ride the wave of the now as it occurred. It was almost like he didn't exist, that is how powerfully understated he was. And in his unexistance, he accomplished some of the greatest feats of the 20th century IMHO. And it was so understated that his contribution to mankind is still being discovered to this day.
Although many MANY MAAAAAAANY disagree with me, I feel the same way about Philip Glass. His music to me is WAAAAAAAAAAAAY ahead of it's time. YES, some of it is a bit uninspired, but if you are a true Philip Glass aficionado, I can assure you there are not only some gems in there, there is music that simply cannot be appreciated for another 500 years!
Certain people like that become legends. Their existence and tellings of their existence transcends reality and the basis of reality. It makes you think, maybe they WERE more than reality. [[:|]]
I love my father, I wish I spent time with him, especially musically, but all said and done, I probably spent less time with him than more than 99% of the people that knew him, and still I hold him in the highest regards, not simply because he was my father, but because he deserves to be called a legend for his contributions to mankind.
I'm fortunate enough to either have inherited enough musical ability or learned enough music, that I can recognize that about my own father. Becuase his contribution was subtle. Strong but unnoticed. And it takes a real deep feeler, or listener to understand just how special he was to all men. He's a hero, to be sure.
Evan Evans
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Evan, all valid points regarding Goldsmith/Williams. Believe me, I love Jerry's work a lot. From a film composer's perspective, he did have a very interesting way of interpretting what music a film needed and went ahead with it. It's been said that Williams responds to a film like your average patron and thus writes music that is his visceral reaction to it. Goldsmith had a more clinical way of getting into the guts of a film and scored it inside out.
I LOVE Islands in the Stream. Just gorgeous music. And First BLood is one of my favorite scores of all time. Same goes for PAPILLON (how brilliant is it that the first music cue comes in at 20 minutes into that film and with dissonant trumpets at that?).
I won't debate the originality of Goldsmith's application of music to film but I think he, like Williams had his influences and they showed up in various films, some more obviously than others. Poltergeist to me is an amalgam of Ravel with a smattering of Stravinsky. One of the cues in Total Recall sounds note-for-note of BArtok's Mirculous Mandarin. Goldsmith's references are obviously less discussed because his material was drawn from more modern composers like Bartok, Stravinsky, Varese, Berg, and such. Williams is writes in an idiom that recalls Strauss, with a dash of Prokofiev, Elgar, etc. Although I've heard some Barber in his pieces too and not the ubiquitous Adagio. More "Overture to the School of Scandal" and his Essays for Orchestra.
As for your father, yes, he's a legend and for good reason. I don't know a single person that hasn't heard of Bill Evans. Everytime I'd be playing at the piano in university, with closed chord inversions with little movement on the keyboard, someone would declare "hey, you're playing Bill Evans voicings". I mean, that's the legacy your dad left behind. A complete style of playing is attributed to him. A real musical genius. And we have had so few true genius' in our midst in the late 20th century.
As for minimalism. what do you think of John Adams? I had the pleasure to talk with him for a while after a concert he gave in Detroit a few years back. A very smart and friendly person. Considering his compositional prowess, I was impressed how interested he was in what I was writing at the time (although he didn't and still doesn't think much of film scoring or should I say current film composers in Hollywood).
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Wow, Evan! I didn't know you were Bill Evan's son? That's pretty cool!
Unfortunately, I can't agree with you about Phillip Glass. Sorry. To me, he's someone who hit upon something genuine back in the day, then hit on it again, and again, and again... I would like to see some true development in his recent (or somewhat recent) orchestral music, but I just find it kind of trite. This is only an opinion, though, so don't get too upset. Yes, his music will be around in 500 years, but I'm not sure it is in any way ahead of its time...(?) Come to think of it, I'm really not sure it was ever ahead of its time, but rather very much *of* its time. Mind you, I've always felt that this is much more important than place to be than "ahead", which is kind of an illusion anyway. (okay, I may be starting to convince myself that you're right about him... perhaps I just don't like it on a superficial level. hmmm...)
I'd imagine you'll feel inclined to prove me wrong, so hop to it!
J.
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"How do you know who is reading these pages?" - drg
Are you kidding?
It is my fondest wish that the people I criticize read this but unfortunately they will probably miss it.
By the way Evan, thanks for doing a zoological study on me. You know sir, I've never had that done to me. Of course I've been to the doctor, had blood tests, etc., but never been the subject of zoological studies.
Also, Phillipp Glass is the most egregious example of pretentious minimalist claptrap in the history of that lamentable movement. Five hundred years from now he won't be understood? You must be attempting irony. He could have been understood five hundred years AGO.
He also is responsible for the most arrogant and disgusting act of artistic sabotage since Ted Turner instituted colorization. He removed the soundtrack to Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast" by George Auric - a French composer who wrote individual works superior to all of Phillip Glass's output put together - and substituted his own piece of shit for the music. This is a criminal act that should be punished with significant jail time.
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No no no. I can't. Don't feel inclined to either. I respect people's personal choices. It's just something really personal I feel. believe me I know what it's like to try to convince someone that Philip Glass has merit. But alas, it's impossible. I think people are listening and feeling too much of his music. It's actually more of a mathematical masterpiece. Although it's true, I think it has some merit what Randy Newman said: "With Philip Glass, if a flea farts it's a huge deal!". And that's true. That's teh beauty of his musical genius. He's able to take the epic and reduce it to trivia. He's able to take the trival and make it Epic. It's a very NEW kind of music that I don't think the world is ready for yet.@jbm said:
Unfortunately, I can't agree with you about Phillip Glass. Sorry. To me, he's someone who hit upon something genuine back in the day, then hit on it again, and again, and again...
I'd imagine you'll feel inclined to prove me wrong, so hop to it!
J.
Evan Evans
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He also is responsible for the most arrogant and disgusting act of artistic sabotage since Ted Turner instituted colorization. He removed the soundtrack to Cocteau's "Beauty and the Beast" by George Auric - a French composer who wrote individual works superior to all of Phillip Glass's output put together - and substituted his own piece of shit for the music. This is a criminal act that should be punished with significant jail time.
A purist idealist are ya?
LOL.
Evan Evans
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It's not about the music ...
Correct, Glass is not about music. Good one.Right. I love all artforms too much to consider that just because something has a musical sound to it it means it fits in the artform called music. i've seen painter's transcend the art of fine art (painting). I've seen sculptures create music. I've seen musicians create a dance with nature. I like to see a person's foray into expression as something unique to them. I would never be so biased as to say, that's bad music because it's not as good as most music. Maybe it's not meant to be music. I respect each artist as just that ... an artist. I can't respect someone for instance who thinks my father was just a jazz pianist / composer, or that he was better than Bud Powell or Keith Jarrett. Each one has their own thing going for them, and some of what they have going is less about music and more about a unique presentation of expression.
On that note, Philip Glass is way ahead of his time, as I see it. Try experiencing something of his again, without hearing, but rather by thinking. His art is intellectual. Some people don't like new art though. Stravinsky was tomatoed offstage in 1911. I can't help that. I can't help those who must compare what is being presented to what they know. That is not being open minded though, and it is not being respectful either.
I am one who respects those on the new frontier most. The originals. The innovators. To say that Glass isn't an innovator is to pigeon hole him into the art of music. It's just not what it's all about. His mind is more expansive than to be limited like that. It takes being open minded to even have the opportunity to understand that. And even then, you might still not get it. So it's ok with me, anyone who doesn't like Glass. However, I understand him as being way ahead of his time. I'd bet you there'll come a point in our future where pop music or rock music becomes something very similar to Glass' music. Just as the early 90s went through an acoustic phase, so will electronic music someday in the future. Then all those minimalistic beats and arpeggios will be played on classical instruments, and the popular form of music will suddenly be something that someone thought of hundreds of years earlier, in the mid 20th century. And those in the 25th Century will go on a rampage for Glass' recordings and he will be looked at in high regards.
I don't expect people from this time to appreciate him now though. I have a hard time appreciating him myself. It's just not the right time. But if you know enough about music theory and history you might be able to deduce that the future holds a place for music like his ... not the past ... and not the present. Ives and Stravinsky, Debussy, DiVinci, Monet, Columbus, Magellan, Einstein, Newton ... history is full of examples of people sometimes as many as 500 years ahead of their time. I choose to respect these kinds of persons, while they are alive, and can fill me with excitement, NOW, not later.
Evan Evans
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To be honest, my last statement was meant more ironically.
But anyway, interesting points of course. But I´m really surprised that you think Glass is the inventor of minimalism. I see Glass as a clever guy jumping on the train of real inventors like Terry Riley or Steve Reich. They are the ones who invented minimalism as a very strong and radical reaction to the European, especially French and German New Music (with capitals). I see Glass as the one who saw the commercial potential in these ideas but definetly not as an innovator.
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Regarding the John Williams is a better composer than Jerry Goldsmith postulate (strictly musically speaking ignoring merits as far as film.) I think the opposite is true and obviously so. Williams is the traditionalist here with a very straightforward harmonic language. I don't know if I've ever strained much trying to understand what he was doing musically (as much as I may or may not have admired it.) Goldsmith has baffled me too many times to count. And I'm not alone because he has never been copied successfully. Williams has never written anything like Alien or Freud or Planet Of The Apes or Coma etc. These are not triadic harmonies (the hallmark of Williams music.)
I beg to differ and ad that I have never heard this suggested by anyone. David Raksin presented excerpts from the history of film music on KUSC which featured everyone from Steiner to Goldsmith. Williams was not even included on the program. This was a radio program which was about the music on it's own and spoken of in musical terms. Raksin would not of left anyone with superior compositional ability off the program.
This is not to disparage the immensely gifted John Williams who has been both criticized out of petty jealously and out of honest objective observation. But to simply say he in no way has ever had the chops of Jerry Goldsmith.
Dave Connor
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I don't think of him as the inventor of minimalism. But he is an innovator. Thomas Edison may have invented the light bulb, but there were plenty of innovations in the same field since ... xeon bulbs, led, lcd, arc lights, etc. Anyway, innovator does not mean inventor here Mathis. Two different words.@mathis said:
To be honest, my last statement was meant more ironically.
But anyway, interesting points of course. But I´m really surprised that you think Glass is the inventor of minimalism. I see Glass as a clever guy jumping on the train of real inventors like Terry Riley or Steve Reich. They are the ones who invented minimalism as a very strong and radical reaction to the European, especially French and German New Music (with capitals). I see Glass as the one who saw the commercial potential in these ideas but definetly not as an innovator.
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Dave,
I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you saying John Williams is not as much of a composer because he is less original? Is that basically it?
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Evan Evans
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I'm sorry Dave but I must disagree with your charge about Williams. Listen to his score for Sleepers. The main theme is built on 4ths, and the melody goes through a number of chromatic changes that take it out of a central key centre.
Or let us take something more contemporary like "Jazz Autographs" from The Terminal. There are some great substitutions in that track. I don't think Williams has ever present any of his themes in stripped down basic triadic form. Maybe Jurassic Park or some kiddy fare like that, but to discredit Williams without knowing his entire canon is a little narrow-minded. Have you heard IMAGES or CLose Encounters of the Third Kind? Most of the latter is texture based but somehow every forgets this and always remembers the last 10 minutes of overtly Romantic styled music.
For me, I can lift a Goldsmith theme within 20 minutes of hearing it. But then again, I have a really decent relative pitch. Williams' themes aren't to hard either but he composes/orchestrates vertically, moreso than Goldmsith who composed linearly- and he himself admitted this in a 1984 Keyboard magazine interview. And toward the late '90's, Goldsmith had settled into a very basic compositional form. Almost homophonic. John Barry has done away with most of his up-tempo writing in the same manner. Why do you think Brad Bird hired Michael Giacchino for THe Incredibles? Because Barry no longer writes like the John Barry of the '60's.
Anyhow, I love Goldsmith's music, but I'd have to say that I find it more challenging to try to lift Williams' music and represent it fully (melody and harmony) than Goldsmith, Planet of the Apes not withstanding.
Someone who I find wrote incredibley complex harmonic music was Alex North. I love his scores to 2001, Dragonslayer, Spartacus, even his underrated and sadly unreleased score to Good Morning Viet nam. What a lovely adagio he wrote for that. Sad, reflective, and the harmonies even evoke the time period that the film takes place in. Ahhh, I miss Mr. North.
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Yes, Alex North is probably the most advanced musically of all of these composers. We discussed his great unused "2001" score on another thread.
That's true that John Barry doesn't write in his 60s style, but how could any person do that? It would be remaining frozen in time. Anyway he evolved far beyond that and became probably the best melodist of all film composers.
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Well, to my ears, yes, that is the main criteria. But my backbround is in jazz so my ears like to hear extensions upon the basic chords (7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc.). But I don't think I'd declare that simpler music is necessarily bad. I think I'd be close-minded if I didn't listen and accept all types of music.
My Goldsmith comment wasn't to disparage his style of music to elevate Williams. Ultimately, even with all of our music knowledge on this board, what we listen to is basic preference. Objective analysis such as orchestration technique or harmonic language use can help to clarify our points but, as we've seen, there are even subjective debates about that.
I would like to retract my comment about Goldsmith being a more triadic composer. In his final years, he did seem to eschew the complexiy that was the hallmark of his style in the '60's, '70's and even early '80's. I think 1990's Total Recall was the last truly virtuosic score he wrote. For some reason that seemed to be a turning point for him, wherein he realised that writing "the equivelant of a Bruckner Symphony" didn't really matter in the end because of all the sound effects he had to compete with.
Williams always seemed less sensitive about how his music worked with the picture. In the '70's, you'd get these amazingly vibrant, colorful, big Romantic-styled symphonic scores that played so well on CD because they stood out like a sore thumb. Ironically, I think Williams has become a better "film composer" but somewhat diminished as a music composer. A lot of his scores nowadays (Harry Potter3 and parts of The Terminal) seem endemic to the film and are hard to enjoy out of the narrative context.
Which leads me BACK to the original topic on this post- Giacchino's Incredibles score is so much fun to listen to in and out of the film because it's very melodic but also has some great use of motives too. And who doesn't love that final Incredits where he uses that ascending 4 note motif in a 5/4 time signature? Damn that stuff sizzles! I also enjoy the drumming which harkens back to the days prior to drum machines where there would be dynamic fills, flams, accents, rolls, whatever, to compliment the music. Man, I hope this brings back a '70's renaissance.
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I also have to disagree very strongly that simple harmony results in simple music.
OK, I will start to generalize now, too, since it´s a phenomenon I often recognize with people having a good education in one discipline. As soon as you (one) have aquired a really nice, well crafted and expensive hammer your eyes will automatically start looking out exclusively for nails which you possibly could hammer in.
So as soon as people learned all this great stuff about harmony and eartraining and counterpoint they will start judging music with exactly these criteria they put so much effort in to master. In the end the effect of the education is not widening the mind but limiting it to certain aspects. I think this is sad.
It´s actually very interesting to have this discussion at the same time with a discussion about minimalism, which is widely suspected as simple music. The material might be simple, however the cognition of an early Reich piece can be of amazing complexity.
B.t.w., Evan, OK, understood the differenciation between inventor and innovator. But still I have doubts calling Glass an innovator. I would prefer calling him an exploiter.
And, to close this with a personal preference, I´m not very fond of all these complex Jazz harmonies, simply because they reduce the amount of complexity in terms of contrast. The more you add additionals the more similar will be the perception of two chords.
But I´m not so concerned about harmony anyway.
But I totally agree about the fun listening to the incredibles score.
