That really is amazing... I genuinely forgot I was listening to midi!!!
What was really cool about listening to this, also, was the fact that for the first time ever with midi, I really heard it as a *performance* -- so that I was listening to the different approaches, dynamics, tempii, etc., as interpretations. I even found myself comparing this performance to the Karajan one I've become so accustomed to! Okay, it hurts a bit to think that this mock-up actually challenges the real thing... but in many ways, it does! Or at least, it makes me listen to the MUSIC again, and not to the programming. I honestly don't think any layperson would realize they'd been listening to a computer. No chance. Even a trained ear would be hard-pressed to figure it out.
I'd love to hear the original .wav/.aif...

Congrats to Andy, Herb, and everybody at VSL.

(Yes, I'm now DYING to give you my money! If only I had some...)

J.

@mathis said:

Man, amazing programming [[:|]] !!!! Absolutely fabulous.
Great work, Andy!

How is it mixed?

Thanks Guys for the comments. The whole thing ran real time using Giga Studio 2.5 and Kontakt - G5 Dual 2.5, G4 Dual 1.25, G4 400, P4 3.0, P4 2.4. I used 3 instances of Altiverb, the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Hall as an overall effect, the Sydney Opera House Choir Stalls to give the Strings & Woodwinds a little depth and the Small Phillips Hall to add some distance to the Brass & Percussion. Sequenced on Digital Performer. I eventually had to render a handful of tracks to audio as neither of my PCs enjoyed having Kontakt running at the same time as Giga - but it's fine to work with - just the occassional pop. Obviously EQ was used, mainly to push instruments back fom the mic and finally the whole mix passed through a cheap Behringer Ultrafex II unit - I've had it for 8 years and I can't seem to be able to shake it!

Andy.

Wow. Sounds like the Charle Dutoit conducted version. Great stuff. [:)] Got time to do Uranus The Magician and/or Mars Bringer of war? I would think Mars would be a piece of cake after doing Jupiter. [[;)]]

Hi Andy,

thank you for explaining your technique. I remember your explanation of the Behringer device well from the Debussy thread. So I expected that you used it here, too.
However, while your mix has the exact right amount of distance without the common overuse of reverb (which I recognize often), I think the mix lacks rolling elastic low end. It sounds a bit flat to me. (That´s my absolutely ONLY critic on your work, b.t.w., and very anal retentive.) The dynamics doesn´t "explode" when it should, the bass doesn´t shake my stomach when it should. I mean, the frequencies are technically there, but they don´t move my balls. If you understand what I mean.
Can it be that this "flattening" happens with the Behringer?
The other possibility I see is using the altiverb in serial mode, but it doesn´t really sound like you did that. But mixes with 100% altiverb sound pretty flat to me, too. (and actually unrealistic)

I listened again and I have to say another time that your programming is absolutely fantastic. How long did it take you?

Bests,
- Mathis

To exclude the possibility that it is beacause of mp3 I wouldn´t mind if Herb also puts an uncompressed .wav version on the board.

Wow, I think that's the best mockup I've heard on the site. It really never gets tired or synchy, and the mix is fantastic. I think you're my hero.

[:O]ops:

I personally don't think he overused reverb. I think it is somewhat flat.. but I'm going by the assumption that this is based on an early 20th century compostition. The hollywood like saturated ambience didn't exist back then. I think the trumpets could be stronger and have a little more character.. but overall, he did a magnificant job.

Buy the way, where do you get those background noises (subtle instrument clicking). And could someone link the Debussy thread for me please? Thanks.

Hold on one cotton pickin' minute. The orchestration says Tenor Tuba but VSL doesn't do a Tenor Tuba - or do they - I want one - can I have one please?

Fantastic mockup BTW.

DaveTubaKing

Buy the way, where do you get those background noises (subtle instrument clicking). And could someone link the Debussy thread for me please? Thanks.

http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=2534&highlight=debussy

If I remember right, Andy has produced some ambient noise recordings.

toDave:
Tenortuba and Wagnertuba are the same instruments.

best
Herb

Herb please tell me you didn't mean that. You mean Andy used the Wagner Tuba instead of a Tenor Tuba right?

A Wagner Tuba is a big french horn a Tenor Tuba is a small tuba. It's also called a Euphonium and is used extensivley in British Style brass bands and American style Wind/Concert bands. It looks like a small tuba.

Holst most definately wrote for a Tenor Tuba/Euphonium and not a Wagner Tuba.

Please tell me it's just a misunderstanding.

You do intend to sample a Tenor Tuba/Euphonium sometime don't you?

Dave (panicking slightly)TubaKing

As far as I know, the Wagner tuba does have a French Horn mouthpiece, therefore performed by French horn players. But it's not a big French Horn.

In scores of Wagner, Strauss, Bruckner, Janacek the instruments called Tenortubas, should be performed using a Wagner tuba.

I don't know this exactly for Holst.
Maybe German based composer mean with Tenortuba the Wagner tuba,
and english based composers the Euphonium?

To be honest, I don't know which instrument Andy used for the Tenortuba part. It's not so easy to detect this instrument.
I would have used automatically the Wagner Tuba because of my culture background.

best
Herb

Brilliant programming!
But...
I've set an experiment. I gave to listen to Debussy and to Holst to some of my friends and asked them: "which one do you think is the real orchestra and which one sampled?". All of them said that Debussy is real.
Actually, that is my opinion too.
Mathis is right. Mixing is the clue.
Trully to say, i had an impression, that conductor splashed cymbals by himself. And as you mentioned, you used the same rev for all percussion (so it applys to all section). Must say, Woodwinds are perfect, what i can't say about strings (lack of Rev and EQ).
I'm more sound engineer than musisian, so forgive me my fault-finding.
The whole thing is OUTSTANDING.
BTW: Your Debussy mockup midi file, is some sort of my MIDI Bible.
Any chance to see Holst midi file?
Thank you for inspiring all of us.

This is a language barrier problem with the Wagner Tubas vs/ tenor tubas which are of course hugely different instruments. Both Dave Tuba King and Herb are correct. The Wagner Tubas are modified horns, but Wagner actually called some of them "tenor tuben." This is in sharp distincition to the current Euphonium, otherwise known now as a "tenor tuba." Bruckner writes specifically for Wagner Tubas, which do use the horn mouthpiece and can be played by horn players, but he certainly does not write for the modern tenor tubas which never could be played by a horn player unless he was also a trombone player - the one who usually doubles on "tenor tuba" - the instrument Holst wrote for.

Mathis,

You are of course invited over to my place anytime you'd like to show me how you can "move my balls".

LOL

Evan Evans

Herb,

here are a couple of links.

http://www.hornplanet.com/hornpage/museum/history/horn_history5.html

http://www.csupomona.edu/~dmgrasmick/mu330/EuphoniumTubalect.html

The Wagner Tuba as used by Wagner and Bruckner particularly are bass french horns. They are played by french horn players and always sit with the french horns.

Holst in the planets and Janacek in the Sinfonietta wrote for proper tenor tubas (or euphoniums) and they always sit with the tuba and trombones.

In Jupiter it only bulks out the brass but in Mars of course it has a very important solo. This is never never never played on a Wagner Tuba.

the only reason I am so passionate about this is because I have been waiting and hoping that VSL will include a Euphonium sample at some Point. In the wider musical field it is used far more extensivley than the wagner tuba. the Wagner Tuba only appears in a Wagner and a small handful of other mostly germanic orchestral repertoire.

The euphonimum (tenor tuba) probably appears more frequently. Richard straus wrote an important solo for it in Don Quixote.

The Euphonium (tenor tuba) is used very extensivley in British style brass bands (which can also be found extensivley in europe and New Zealand and Australia) It is also used a lot in American Wind and Concert banda and Military bands all over the world as well as thousands of Tuba/Euphonium ensembles - there s a very very big market out there waiting for a sampled Euphonium.

Gotta dash - off to play Carmina Burana - no euphonium or wagner tuba but a great tuba part.

I'm sorry to hijack Andys thread.

Dave(still panicking)TubaKing

Hi,

Thanks again for your comments. Just to clear up the Tenor Tuba thing, I think Holst was referring to a Euphonium, so I simply used the high registr of the Tuba. It wasn't a big deal as it only ever doubled and there were no solo parts unlike 'Mars'.

I really don't want to get into a Holst versus Debussy debate - after all they're both my babies [[;)]] - but regarding mixes, I intentionally mixed them very differently. If you listen to recordings of the pieces you'll find that the majority are mic'ed differently, with the Debussy quuite close and the Holst more distanced. Often a larger acoustic location is chosen (or added!) for the Holst as well. In terms of perspective I've noticed recordings where Cymbals and Glocks (for example) appear closer than they should, if it's the real deal then not many question this - but as it's a mockup there's often the pressure of it almost having to sound better than the real thing [[:|]] ! Mathis. What monitors are you using? I've just received a new set of Adam P22A monitors, so I'll check the bottom end on those first. [:D]

Thanks,

Andy.

Just been in the bath thinking about the above. Other MAJOR differences between the Debussy & Holst. The Debussy is a quieter piece than the Holst and allows the ambience track to really add to the realism. The Debussy is swamped in the legato tool - it simply wouldn't have been possible without it. The Holst has only several phrases of legato in the whole 8 mins. Even the string based middle section is marked non-legato. The Legato tool is so amazing that it's relatively easy to create realistic passages. The Holst was so much harder to mockup than the Debussy because of its popularity also. The Debussy is a great advocate of the Performance set and the Holst of the Cube.

Andy.

Evan, I´d be delighted to move your balls. But it will be a very special experience, mind you! [:D] (you don´t know what I´ll be using... [6] )

Bill, I understand right that you make a distinction between "Tuben" and "Tuba"? In case yes, I´d like to clarify that "Tuben" is just the correct german plural of "Tuba".
Which is of course very funny for children and me, because "Tuben" is also the plural of "Tube", tubes. Wagner tubes. HAHAHA

Andy, unfortunately I can´t compare to the Debussy since I can´t seem to download it. But, again, as far as programming and relative mixing is concerned I´m hugely impressed.
I have a very good setup based around Hifi boxes which I know very well. So my judgement is based upon comparison. But the low end is in fact quite strong and deep, so I immediately missed it.
Andy, I really would like to hear a snippet without the Behringer. Maybe the last 30 seconds. Because I´m also really curious to hear what exactly the Behringer does with the distance. I mean after the Debussy thread I immediately wanted to buy it but then I found mixing methods which made me quite satisfied. But still I´d love to learn what exactly makes you using it.
Well, and recently I did some tests with Behringer mixers and other devices and I decided to abandon everything with the name Behringer on it because it really soaks out the musical energy in the way I would describe it "flat". So I am really curious if that´s also the case here. (However, it´s starting to be a very personal investigation so if I annoy you, just ignore, please.)

Bests,
- Mathis

Mathis, I did not make any distinction between those words! I said WAGNER USED THE WORD TENOR TUBEN and that causes this confusion. They are - DUH! - the same root. They both derive from the Latin word for the ancient Roman straight trumpet. This difficulty is similar to the insanity of the English Horn, which is neither a horn nor English.

Also, everything Dave tubaking said was correct of course - it ought to be from a tuba player - and I tried to make those points earlier.