Repetition

[PaulR]

Ok. So I just took delivery of a Mac G5 and now I'm looking forward to being able to access the legato functions for the first time. So the first library I will get as a learning curve is Chamber Strings. Great sound and looking forward to it and then progressing on to updating my First Edition and more Horizon libs.

Bit of worry. Repetition.

There seems to be a lot of data in terms of sample space with regard to this particular function. From what I've read so far it seems to me that this is not very intuitive to use, unlike say, legato. No one ever seems to be able to get their heads round the Repetition function.

Why is this? Is it because it's not explained properly in the manual? Is it because users can't make it work properly? Is it because it's not intuitive and gets in the way of composing?

I don't want the VSL gentlemen to take this as a criticism. It's just a simple consumer question that may be of no interest to anyone actually. BUT, if all this data is presumably included in the cost of a relevant library that includes Repetition, and I'm not going to be able utilize it, for whatever reason, I think it's a reasonable worry.

PR

[leowolfe]

I'm not a "power user" by any stretch of the imagination. I have the First Edition and a few of the Horizon libraries and use them mainly for theatre composition. I am PC/Giga/Kontakt based, so I do not know if there are any differences in how repetition is executed in EXS24, but I did not find repetition at all difficult to set up or use with Giga.

It is definitely more like "programming" than Legato (which you just set and play), but I have not found it to get in the way of the tool's usefulness. The key things are to make sure your tempo is equal to or faster than the particular repetition you're using and make sure you load the correct Performance Tool file. Both of these are well-labeled.

I admit the tool is a bit confusing to describe, but once I opened it and played around for 10 minutes, it made perfect sense.

If this feature is the deal-breaker for whether or not you would buy VSL, I highly encourage you to buy it. I have yet to be disappointed with any VSL purchases I've made. [:D]

Good luck.
--Leo

[PaulR]

@diviriks said:

I am PC/Giga/Kontakt based, so I do not know if there are any differences in how repetition is executed in EXS24, but I did not find repetition at all difficult to set up or use with Giga.

I admit the tool is a bit confusing to describe, but once I opened it and played around for 10 minutes, it made perfect sense.

If this feature is the deal-breaker for whether or not you would buy VSL, I highly encourage you to buy it. I have yet to be disappointed with any VSL purchases I've made. [[:D]]

Good luck.
--Leo

Ok. Thanks Leo, that's very reassuring to know. The question of whether there's a difference between Giga and EXS24 MkII is a good one and I wonder if there is indeed, any major difference.

No worries on it being a deal-breaker at all for me, Leo. I've had the First Edition almost since it came out, but was unable to get the Performance Set because of the Emagic/Apple thing. [[:D]]

Paul

[evan evans]

PaulR,

I think when VSL releases their video tutorials, we are all going to have our jaws drop. There is no doubt in my mind at all that Herb and his team have VERY good reason for the extra space that the repetitions take up, and the seemingly unintuitive awkwardness it takes to understand how to use it. Once the video tutorials come out, we can SEE for ourselves, the process, the technique, and very quickly understand it's practical usefulness and the limits of the technique and how what we thought was awkward before was likely just us NOT using the tool properly.

Apparently these tutorials are nearing release.

VSL Team: Any news on the video tutorials at this time? Could you pre-release the EXS Repetition Tutorial for us long time VSL die-hards who've always wanted to use the Repetition instruments?

Evan Evans

[andygrainger]

I don't think there is any difference between the repetition in Giga or EXS. However, in EXS when you open up a performance instrument, the legato or repetition tool is automatically loaded with the program. You don't have to assign anything. As I understand it, this does not happen with the Giga performance set.
This was the main reason I went for the Performance set for EXS. I got the cube for Giga, and have imported across a large part of the library for certain situations. Also, with the repetitions, it's a lot easier IMHO to see the waveforms in EXS, and if you so desire, make custom patches by editing them.

I am surprised that a man of Mr Evans' calibre is still scratching his head over the repetition tool. I do not believe there are any hidden tricks....it is fairly straight forward, as has been described in various other posts. You are either tied to the specific repetition tempo (not generally very practical of course) or you simply trigger the first note of the various repetition recordings, and mess with the release time to tailor the note lengths to your liking and specific tempo. I think the concept of repetitions was great, however, in practicality it is not perfect, and I suspect once the VSL team had embarked on this road, it was too late to turn back. I mean, there's a hell of a lot of recording and editing in these things.

In my experiments with the string repetition instruments specifically, I have found the following results. Firstly, repetitions at a specific tempo do not always match up well enough to use simultaneously. Lets face it, the players are human, and I doubt whether they recorded all the various note repetitions by tracking to a master repetition. Anyhow, it is just not 'tight enough'. The answer therefore, is to use just the first notes of the repetitions, as I said above, therefore not repeating the exact same sample. This does not always lead to smooth results, (for example, the first repetition of the matrix must be switched to a value of '0' for some reason). However, with some fiddling about (again, the release value is crucial) you can create some very realistic repetition phrases. When you compare a phrase constructed in this manner with the same phrase using the cube instruments, the difference is stark. NO contest. Using the repetition tool in this manner can result in more realistic lines in general, whether repeating the same notes consecutively or not. The sound is richer than the cube IMO.

In summary, I believe, as I seem to remember the esteemed E.Evans writing in a thread many months ago, that what we really needed was lots of recordings of the same notes in various lengths, which would then switch in the matrix in the same fashion as they do now. The five note repetitions are very versatile in terms of tempo (utilising the release slider) however, once you get rid of the first one (which you have to do) this leaves you with only four different notes, and in a repeated pattern, you can start to hear this . Ten or fifteen would give a more natural effect. This, I think, would have been much more useful than spending hours recording for example nine repetitions down to one repetition for all the pitches (and at multiple dynamics I think) Ok, that's my two pennies worth!

Finally, in my recent thread 'Symphonic cube?' Mr Evans quite rightly stated that I have an English name, and that's why my question got answered, when others who had asked a similar question, weren't so lucky. Well you were quite right, I am an Englishman in New York, and if George Bush get's back in (which I fear) I may have to move back!

Best wishes, Andy

[evan evans]

@Another User said:

...I seem to remember the esteemed E.Evans writing in a thread many months ago, that what we really needed was lots of recordings of the same notes in various lengths, which would then switch in the matrix in the same fashion as they do now. The five note repetitions are very versatile in terms of tempo (utilising the release slider) however, once you get rid of the first one (which you have to do) this leaves you with only four different notes, and in a repeated pattern, you can start to hear this . Ten or fifteen would give a more natural effect. This, I think, would have been much more useful than spending hours recording for example nine repetitions down to one repetition for all the pitches (and at multiple dynamics I think) Ok, that's my two pennies worth!

This still would be useful even if it's in addition to the repetition samples. It's just as realistic on many instruments. Atleast in 44.1 16bit. maybe Herb/VSL have heard it in such high resolution they CAn hear the difference. I am not gonna say definitively that one is better than the other at this point. however, I have found MY way to be VERY practical if you get used to it.

E. Evans [;)]

[jbm]

Hey Paul,

My two cents is that perhaps the application of repetitions with the Performance Tool represent a somewhat temporary solution. If you've been reading the Forum carefully (which I know you have... [;)]) you've no doubt seen little hints that the VSL are up to something really big behind the scenes. In theory, the repetition _samples_ are a brilliant idea. It's just the use of the tool that's a little weird... So, I think the repetition samples will really come into their own down the road a little.
Why do I think this?
I've been working for several months now on my own MaxMSP program to take care of sample selection by analyzing midi files. This system, so far, is working very well, and one of the aspects that really shines is the use of repetition samples. In my program it's extremely simple -- when a note is repeated, if the instrument has repetition samples available, and the note durations are equal to or shorter than the available samples, then the repetitions are selected over the standard samples. But when I listen back, the effect of true, performed repetitions is really TOTALLY unlike standard up/down samples or the typical "variation 1"/"variation 2" you see in the majority of libraries. To have a sequence of notes repeated as they would be played by a living performer is a totally different sound, with a markedly different effect -- the musicality is drastically enhanced. Actually, I never noticed until I started using the Solo Strings that I was actually AVOIDING the use of repeated notes in my pieces!
So, to cut this short. I imagine the repetitions will shine, if perhaps a little later in the life of the VSL.

J.

[p.s. -- I've recently ordered a G5 as well, though I'm still awaiting shipment... I'm dying to get my hands on the bloody thing!]

[lex]

Hi,

I use repetition strings a lot and couldnt live without them.

I do 2 things to make them usable for me.

1. Ussualy I program 2 keyswitches:
-one without the first and last note
-one with last note only

then I use stac 1+2 for the first notes and the second keyswitch on the end of the phrase.

2. For some reason the repetition samples are very slopy so I allways have to offset that midi chanel to start early. Ussualy betwen 20 and 140 ticks.
You offset untill it sounds tight.

Sorry if this was all covered before..[;)]

Alex

[cm]

@Another User said:

2. For some reason the repetition samples are very slopy so I allways have to offset that midi chanel to start early. Ussualy betwen 20 and 140 ticks.

this is *by design* and according to the manual
christian

[duoartc]

To me, one of the great attractions of VSL is the repetition articulations, especially for the violins, although I haven't been able to afford the performance set so far. If they ever produce an "Epic Strings" - complete with repetition and legato, I'll buy it. I can use the 14 strong violin section as the 2nd violins. [:D]

[andygrainger]

Very interesting thread.....JBM, - hope you're right, maybe there's something big round the corner! Anyway, I have been struck by a new thought....for Logic users anyhow.....when Logic 7 appears with its implementation of apple loops or in effect, real time timestretching (I use LIVE for this presently), then we could import the repetition samples into the program, trim them if needed, and use this feature to get them in time at differing tempi! This would only be applicable for same note repetitions of course, and as JBM says: a real player playing repeated notes is unlike any repeated sample manipulation. It might work?! I haven't tried this using LIVE and VSL, so have no real world evidence, but the principle's cool I think. Roll on Logic 7! Perhaps PC users can do the same thing with ACID? Can you rewire ACID to your sequencer on the PC?

[Nick Batzdorf]

I personally don't think the repetition tool is *that* hard to grok, and it's not because I'm smarter than anyone else!

Last time I explained it, Evan accused me of being a lousy writer, but hopefully this time he'll SHUT THE HECK UP if he still has that opinion. Or even if he doesn't, because I'm not in the mood to be insulted. [:)]

Okay. They record an instrument playing, say, c-c-c-c-c-c-c at a given tempo.

That repeated-note performance is chopped up into programs that start playback at the beginning of each note in the performance. Each time you play a note, a keyswitch is sent to change to another program, i.e. to start with another note from the performance.

The main reason the performance is chopped up, of course, is so you can play at your tempo rather than the recorded one. That works fine if you play at or (up to a point) faster than the recorded tempo, but the performance will get ahead of you - the next recorded note will sound - if you play slower. (The length of the notes determines the limit to how fast you can play, i.e. it will sound wrong if they overlap.)

You can specify whether a note in the performance is played or skipped by using the 1 0 1 0 stuff (1=play it, 0=skip it), you can loop that 1 0 1 0 pattern if you need more than the number of repetitions in it, and you can string together different patterns if you want a variation.

[evan evans]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Last time I explained it, Evan accused me of being a lousy writer, but hopefully this time he'll SHUT THE HECK UP if he still has that opinion. Or even if he doesn't, because I'm not in the mood to be insulted. [:)]

Actually Nick, I remember that. And I don't think it was me who accused you. i only seconded it, because the explanation was short. if anything I thought you were a rgeat writer and asked for somethign better.

Evan Evans

[evan evans]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Okay. They record an instrument playing, say, c-c-c-c-c-c-c at a given tempo.

That repeated-note performance is chopped up into programs that start playback at the beginning of each note in the performance. Each time you play a note, a keyswitch is sent to change to another program, i.e. to start with another note from the performance.

The main reason the performance is chopped up, of course, is so you can play at your tempo rather than the recorded one. That works fine if you play at or (up to a point) faster than the recorded tempo, but the performance will get ahead of you - the next recorded note will sound - if you play slower. (The length of the notes determines the limit to how fast you can play, i.e. it will sound wrong if they overlap.)

You can specify whether a note in the performance is played or skipped by using the 1 0 1 0 stuff (1=play it, 0=skip it), you can loop that 1 0 1 0 pattern if you need more than the number of repetitions in it, and you can string together different patterns if you want a variation.

Ok, but WHY? how do you use it? Why would you do 1 0 1 0 ? yes, it can be done, but WHY? I just don't understand the practical use fo this tool. Please explain what situations you use the tool in and how you get it to work in those situations. That'd be great for me to hear, anyway.

Evan Evans

[herb]

Only one simple example:

you have three times the same repetition phrase all on the same pitch following each other

ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa

You are using a 9rep performane, so you could set up three different phrases using different parts of the repetition.
There are so many possibilities, I'm sure that a creativ composer like you, will check it out.

best
Herb

[evan evans]

@herb said:

ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa ... ta-ta-ta-taa
You are using a 9rep performane, so you could set up three different phrases using different parts of the repetition. ... best
Herb

Ah, I see Herb, So if you wanted several iterations of the same repetitive motif to sound not repeated you would go, 1,1,1 : 1,0,1,1 : and finally 1,1,0,1 ??? This would create three reps each with the same starting note and each with its own set of repeated notes?

Evan

[herb]

Exactly.
I prefer to use original start and end notes for phrases, which do have start end endings.
So I would propably use these presets:

1:0:0:0:1:1:0:0:1 -- 1:0:0:0:0:0:1:1:1 -- 1:1:1:0:0:0:0:0:1

So in this case the repetition tool helps to achieve "user-controlled randomness".

It really depends how exposed an instrument is.
If there are permanent repetitions in a tutti, I simply use a preset line, where the starting note is switched OFF.

Another cool trick to get randomness is to use different repetition counts if 2 instruments are performing repetitions in unisono.
For example bassi and celli, and they have to perform 40 or more repetition counts on the same key. (in a classical style)
You don't want to setup the repetition tool in CHAIN mode, but you want to avoid a loop character. So use for the celli this preset:

0:1:1:1:1:0:1:1:1

and for the bassi this one:

0:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1

best
Herb

[evan evans]

Oh my goodness, I am starting to understand this now. Ok, ok. This is great. I am going ot have some fun experimenting with this in a few days. Thanks for being, well, INCREDIBLY PATIENT with me.

[;)]

Evan Evans

[Rob Elliott]

This is a very good thread. One question - Why do we set the first note of the rep to "O"

Thanks

Rob

[evan evans]

Herb was saying that with lots of other instruments layered in that you wouldnt hear much difference between 1 and 0 for the first note, and so it's a way to give some variety.

Evan Evans