Ondes Martenot

[Guy Sigsworth]

As far as I know, no-one's ever made samples of an ondes martenot. With all the performance options (different speakers, portamento ets) it'd need a lot of thought. But, if anyone could do it properly it'd be VSL.

Maybe throw in some trautonium samples too

Laters

Guy

[evan evans]

Wow, what a great idea. The ultimate classic synth, used in MANY symphonic works by major composers.

Although I think a physical modeling synth could do it quite well, perhaps it's something to think about.

It certainly would give the VSL team some exposure to the DJ demographic (for whatver that's worth).

Evan Evans

[William]

that's a good point Evan - the Ondes have been used by more big-shot classical composers than any other electronic instrument. I agree this would be a great thing to do for two reasons: while other old analog electronic instruments you might be able to get and use yourself, you will probably never in your lifetime get your hands on one of these unless someone starting making them new the way Moog is now doing authentic Theremins. Secondly they are a complex, unique sound with all those tubes that cannot be faked any more than a violin can by pure synthesis.

[Guy Sigsworth]

Exactly. It's the instruments we can't hope to get hold of that we most need good sample libraries of.

I believe Johnny Greenwood of Radiohead has an Ondes Martenot. So maybe there'll be a be some demand for the sample library outside the hardcore classical world.

So come on VSL - give it a go!

Guy

[William]

Another thing - can you imagine Ondes Martenot with the Glass and Stones samples? What an ensemble that would be!

And throw in a BASS FLUTE and theremin and you've got yourself the weirdest orchestra in history. Also, everything you need for an Exotica album (if you already have a few Latin percussion instruments) ala Les Baxter who did an extremely strange couple of records related to his Exotica things with theremin, one called "Music from the Moon."

[evan evans]

That would be sweet. Maybe some day?

Looks like BASS FLUTE might be on it's way. [:O]ops: Maeks me blush just thinking about it.

Evan Evans

[jbm]

Good point about physical modelling, Evan.

It seems like the most reasonable way to do it... model the instrument, then model the amp. It's a pretty simple control structure, which is usually what gets in the way in phymod.

Though I love the enthusiasm this old, sample-neglected instrument has received in this thread, I can't say I'd spend my $$$ on it! [*-)]

I'll say it again with regard to the "wish-list": extended techniques! Scratch-tones, whistle-tones, key-slaps, oh my!

cheers,

J.

[William]

I hate physical modeling and loathe "virtual analog" - why? So you can be insipid and lame? I will never understand why someone would want a fake analog synthesizer.

And asking for a faked (oh! I'm sorry - "physically modeled") Ondes Martenot is like asking for a DX7 violin. Go ahead and screw around with your artificial b.s. if that's what turns you on. My whole point was that this particular analog electronic instrument deserves just as pure a set of pristine digital samples as a traditional acoustic instrument.

[Guy Sigsworth]

I agree with William that a physically modelled Ondes Martenot wouldn't be as desirable as some great VSL samples of the real thing (are you guys at VSL getting the message yet?).

However, I think there's something "in" physical modelling that's worthwhile. There are too many analog synth recreations already - the UN should make them illegal. And a physical model of even a simple acoustic sound - say a marimba - never quite has the richness of a good sample library. But it's when you take modelling away from mere attempted reproduction of the familiar, things can get interesting.

I've used both Modalys and Tassman. Modalys takes just too long to get results for me, although I'm sure there'll be electroacoustic composers who love it. Tassman is much easier to just fiddle with and get interesting results. Also, check out Reaktor. I've downloaded Reaktor instruments where the designer's added the resonator from an acoustic physical model onto a subtractive synth - that kind of thing...

Laters

Guy

[William]

I agree completely with that - using it to do something other than mere fakery could be great.

This reminds me of the dawn of the analog synthesizer age, when many companies were coming out with analogs. They were all being abused, 99% of the time, to create incredibly stupid mockeries of orchestral sound. Now, when they are superceded by digital sampling, they can be appreciated for their actual sound, which is a unique timbre of its own.

[james_b]

@William said:

I agree completely with that - using it to do something other than mere fakery could be great.

This reminds me of the dawn of the analog synthesizer age, when many companies were coming out with analogs. They were all being abused, 99% of the time, to create incredibly stupid mockeries of orchestral sound. Now, when they are superceded by digital sampling, they can be appreciated for their actual sound, which is a unique timbre of its own.

True. It's a bit like how some of those original piano patches (say, electric piano) were emulating a real instrument that was originally emulating the original piano. However, the smooth tones of a DX7-style electric piano patch (emulating a Rhodes or maybe a Wurlitzer) is pretty much in a category of its own by this point.

Now that computers have enough horsepower to emulate some of that old hardware - digital waveform synthesis (FM) sounds are once again becoming popular. But now, instead of expensive hardware, we can just buy a simple plug-in instrument. What a time we live in! [:D]

[jbm]

Whoa!!!

William, easy... down boy...

I mean, geez, it's all basically "faked" around here! [;)]

My point was simply that one could create a phymod Ondes that truly rivaled the real thing, at least as far as anyone listening to a recording could tell.

In general, phymod actually can be very interesting to work with, owing to the fact that it's somewhat chaotic -- you can get behaviors that are much more "true" to the real instruments. Really, until the VSL performance instruments showed up, the best virtual clarinet I'd ever heard was a demo done on a Yamaha VL-1. Now, the real problem is that this demo had to be created by a clarinet player, using a breath-controller -- the technology isn't accessible to a wide range of musicians, because the control structure is just too complex. And that's the big problem phymod faces -- learning to control the instruments it just too difficult, and the vast majority of instrumets simply can't be played using a keyboard because the control structure is not suited to the instrument being modeled (a flute is not a percussion instrument, after all).

But the idea behind physical modeling is a sound one (no pun intended), and I think it very likely that it will find its way, in some interesting new hybrid form, into the virtual orchestras of the future. So don't be down on phymod just because it's been abused in the virtual synth market. The limitations of it are still basically down to our lack of understanding of how the orchestral instruments really work, processing power, and particularly how we might manage the vast range of control parameters in a unified, dynamic way.

J.