Interesting discussion.

I've followed off and on the HZ sound and I've noticed that it seems very diffuse. All those layers can fool me into this false sense of "bigness" but really I believe that there is a point of diminishing returns where the sound becomes smaller and without focus or character.

Comparing Gladiator to another similar style soundtrack from 25 years ago (or even a recording of the Holst) tells me that even though I can hear that there is only three trumpets (let's pretend for an example) the intensity is so different; more raw and visceral.

When I put headphones on I hear a huge blended string section layered with string samples and even synth strings, creating a giant pad that almost sucks the sense of space and articulation away from the music. Don't get me wrong, it is a cool sound and when it is appropriate it is awesome. But this process can be self-defeating if one is not aware of the sonic consequences of all these layers.

I liken it to watching a Jerry Bruckheimer film. Very grand but also very affected, so if you were to do quick A/B comparisons you could see (or hear) how one is not as realistic (or accomplished) a presentation as one would imagine without a reality check.

Clark

I agree Clark control (your name reminds me of the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons for some reason) and would go further to state that I am trying to do the opposite of Han Zimmer. I am trying to use samples naked. No massive layers, no tricks in mixing, no bullshit. As a means of using, rather than obliterating, the individual character captured within those samples.

Yeah William I seem to be gravitating towards your side of things:

As a relative newcomer to VSL my experiments with these high-end samples are so much more successful when I go for that pure music approach. To not take advantage of the natural organic energy inherent in these sounds is ignoring one of their greatest strengths. Disguising these sounds with layers actually makes it tougher for me to compose something musically compelling, though they do layer well with other libraries, etc.

I read an interview in Keyboard magazine where a MIDI orchestrator actually warned against doubling parts using samples, even if the doubled parts are commonplace in orchestral literature (F Horn w/ Violas, for example). The blending phenomenon reduces the "reality quotient" dramatically, giving the dreaded Pipe Organ or Accordion effect.

I suppose that is the main reason for the Woodwind Ensembles Horizon library.

On a lighter note, clarkcontrol is a nickname from a friend who used photoshop on a picture of me so my forehead was HUGE then inserted the caption "You are under Clark Control" like I had enhanced mind control powers or something. Laughed my ass off.

Of course, it didn't hurt that we were both totally wasted at the time.

Clark

@Omega said:

Wow, that's crazy. I was listening to the soundtrack the other day and I thought the brass sounded a few milliseconds off from the strings, but I thought I was just hearing things. His strings sound really good, too. Carter, do you know what kind of strings he uses for those?

You mean which libraries ? I think you hear real strings in the extracts (may be blended sometimes with hans zimmer private strings samples but not much in gladiator soundtrack)

i like hans zimmer sound because the sound is new, it's by far very different compared to the traditionnal hollywood orchestra. yeah it's not "purist, he mixes ethnic instruments with traditionnal orchestral instruments, sometimes he uses an electric guitar in an orchestral performance (rarely though).
Zimmer also uses a set of uncommon percussions (like 80s toms that blend really well with an orchestra) ... i wish i could write something like that : http://annecywebtv.free.fr/anm.mp3 it's beautiful :d

Zimmer is very accomplished at his technique; he uses it to great effect. I was hoping that his Last Samurai soundtrack didn't sound as similar, though. It is a similar movie to Gladiator so maybe he was told to provide a lot of these elements again (solo vox over pedal tone, ethnic perc, etc.). Then again, he uses these techniques a lot anyways.

Whenever I sit down to write something towards this end of the spectrum I usually end up listening to JW's Seven Years in Tibet after Zimmer, Eric Serra, even David Arnold, etc.

I find it very difficult to write with electronic timbres mixed in to something that is supposed to sound symphonic, so I have to hand it to Zimmer and his team for successfully blending the two. Years ago after hearing Broken Arrow I went and did some work that sounded like that for some industrials; that was fun and in the end quite appropriate, but nowadays that stuff just comes off sounding cheap to my ears. Especially Point of No Return (ugh), or Serra's La Femme Nakita. So I suppose that I'm biased because this 80's sound has been done to death. Granted the newer stuff sounds better because there's more real orchestra in these soundtracks (like Serra's Fifth Element, which I really like) but when someone requests instrumentation beyond extra ethnic flutes or percussion (rock guitars, rock drums or electronics mostly) it is tough for me to sell my own ears on it.

Clark

clarkcontrol

I felt as if I was under some outside control, yes, for a moment.

This business of being requested to do something "like" - I also find disturbing. Probably why I cannot function as a normal film composer. My response is - "I do things like me. If you don't like that, hire the other guy."

Another job gone...

William,

I look at it as a fun challenge (or I try to). I do lots of different kinds of music stuff to fill my week: during the day I'm a mild mannered (ha) jazz, modern, and ballet accompanist and at night I put on my cape (tux or whatever) and play jazz, rock, and country gigs.

Part of what keeps me going is the opportunity to try different things all the time. While I have to push outside of my comfort zone more than I'd like to sometimes, I can always find a little bit of myself in whatever I do.

Ideally, someone will hand me a project and say,"We need music" and leave everything to me. Naturally, that's the best. Usually, they'll have a temp score that I will need to draw certain elements from.

Clark

@Omega said:

I was listening to the Gladiator Soundtrack the other day, and I noticed Hans used some kind of Celtic drums (not totally sure if thats what they are). Does anyone know where I can purchase them? Thanks.

If you're looking for a medieval sounding drum sound, I think the Celts were using Frame drums. I've recorded and programmed a frame drum and you can download it for free in GS3, GS2 or Kontakt format. There's also a Peruvian Tarka available for free. Kontakt programming was done by Alan Lastufka.
http://www.herman-witkam.com/raw/

Wow, these samples sound pretty good. Nice work, I really like the sound of the Frame Drums. Nice FX as well, sounds good for a horror flick [;)].

I've just uploaded a demo using the Tarka flute:
http://www.herman-witkam.com/audio/submitting_to_the_mountain.mp3

Very interesting piece Herman. [:)]

Thanks.
Just when you think there's an end coming to it:

Tin Whistle v1.0 GS2.5
------------------------
- Fully chromatic Sustains (/w vibrato modelling)
- Sustains EXP patch
- Staccatos
- Fluttertongue & Trills

http://www.herman-witkam.com/raw/

Herman, how did you record those instruments?

a Rode NT1a condenser mic, an attic with some acoustic treatment, and straight into the Tascam FW1884 interface (Pre-amps & AD converters).

heh, you make it sound easy.

Well, if it was really easy everyone would be recording right now [:D] It takes some planning, getting a musician, watching those levels coming in. The last you need is clipping on your recordings. You want to record around -3 dB (digital), minimise all kinds of possible noise. Lots of takes got messed up by motorcycles, or the noise of a fluorescent lamp, so record everything you need multiple times. Especially short notes that you might want to create round robin patches for.