One more thought:
If there are any composers out there thinking about extending and developing the musical language in music theoretical terms then it´s probably the spectralists around Grisè or Tristan Murail who might be able to claim to be the avant-garde. But wait, they´re also oldfashioned already, right?

"Actually these years right now seem to be very open and non-dogmatic. All concepts and conceptual ideas are done, there´s simply nothing new you can do. Everthing is done.
This time now is about authenticity. It´s about REALLY doing something, not pretending." - Mathis

I am afraid the attitude of others in "power" (so-called) in the musical establishment are not so open minded. For example Boulez (again) whose vitriolic attacks on other composers are disgusting and which include among others: Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Mozart and J.S. Bach. A musician who does not like those composers is like a scientist who does not like Einstein, a painter who does not like Picasso, or a ballet dancer who does not like Barishnikov. In other words, a f**king idiot whose stupid pronouncements should never have been paid the slightest attention to. And yet, sadly, his name is mentioned over and over again. Why? Another one of the mysteries of modern media culture I suppose.

But to avoid being completely negative I agree totally with this statement by Mathis, and in fact I was trying to get at this very idea though it was dismissed by JBM as mere facile technique. It is not. It is the result of a complete sea-change in the history of music, which allows composers now to do absolutely anything with sound. Something that has never been possible before.

William,

I actually didn't dismiss what Mathis is saying as "facile technique". I simply pointed out that the ability to emulate a vast array of musical languages didn't guarantee valuable music, and that the fact that this is seen as a "strength" to producers who want emotional button-pushing scores only makes matters worse for musical culture. After all, we do want to maintain audiences who still care to think about, or concentrate on, the music they're hearing. Also, there is a marked difference between drawing from different traditions and aesthetic approaches in order to arrive at a new place, and simply taking elements of those traditions piecemeal for their emotional impact. The former is an act of synthesis, the latter is paint-by-numbers. I sincerely believe there are a great number of film scores which perform the latter, which is really nothing but technique -- "compose a 2 minute passage in the style of Strauss", and the like. To me, what Mathis is talking about is a synthesis of stylistic approaches, in which anything can be thrown into the pot, without needing to be somehow theoretically "justified". And I agree with him, and I also agree that we are living at a rare time in that regard.

I also agree with Mathis about Grisey -- he's a consumate artist, and I suppose he is doing new things. But actually, much of his "language" (theoretically speaking) is not terribly new. It's the sum of his influences and interests that have become something new, along with the way in which he understands musical form. This, I might add, is my consuming interest these days... How does one structure a piece of music, when all systems have fallen apart. It's very exciting, to me!

It's interesting to hear Mathis say that nobody thinks about consonance or dissonance anymore. I think that's the best way to put it, and something I certainly agree with. Too bad I was so busy reacting to William's seeming attack on dissonance! [:O]ops:

Anyway, I do think we are basically saying the same thing, William. What happened to get you so pissed at Boulez and modernism? Did you read a bad book, get turned down on a commission? What's up? I have to confess that you seem downright hostile today.

J.

@jbm said:

Anyway, I do think we are basically saying the same thing, William. What happened to get you so pissed at Boulez and modernism? Did you read a bad book, get turned down on a commission? What's up? I have to confess that you seem downright hostile today.

J.

That´s true. Bill, what´s up, friend?

I´m curious from what time these Boulez statements are. They sound as if they are from the seventies. At that time it was simply good tone, it was politically correct to state stupid things like that. (Of course forced by himself and alike). But it´s the same today. Today it´s good tone and politically correct to bash on the "New Music" composers, which I think is the same unnecessary. Allow these human beings to change their minds, too. "New Music" is more than thirty years old. It´s stone age.

jbm, I share your interest in form. It´s indeed one of the most important aspects. Especially in a time when you can do everything it´s about the form which tells the artistic statement. Good point.
And I also didn´t read your statements as "facile technique". Basically we all agree here.


B.t.w., Boulez currently conducts Wagner in Bayreuth...

Perhaps William you could try to explain what it is in the music (not the man) you dislike so much ?

I do have a hard time talking with people (and I am NOT accusing you of this) who say X if better than y without explaining their system of values. It is certain not something I've heard Boulez do.

Obviously some music will appeal to some people on a personal level more than works but I try not to let these prejudices get in the way. I think we can learn to appreciate a composer’s skill, his craft even if the music does not necessarily appeal to us. You might find in later years it comes to you (as with Stravinsky and the Method) or you might never listen to it again, either way I do think we should try to be open minded and curious.

Often criticism is just that and not condemnation. Boulez sets out his terms of reference and argues that Shostakovitch has brought nothing new(or whatever). On that basis alone Boulez criticises the works. But he does not deny that many thousands of people like it, or that a great deal of work, effort and suffering went into creating the pieces. He may even like them for all we know, but simply points outsomething lacking within his terms of reference.

Surely the way to answer this would be to dispense with personal attacks and prove him wrong ?

Does Boulez conduct Wagner wih gloves on, the way Wagner conducted Mendelssohn?

My dislike of Boulez has come from hearing direct quotes from him and from his conducting, of which I heard an extensive selection of Debussy, and which is banal and incompetent. The orchestra (New York Phil) could have done better with no conductor. The fact that his tenure there was very short is quite indicative.

However in his defense I did like one thing he said, that music is not about expression of emotion or thought, but is a labyrinth to be endlessly explored. That struck me as a great statement even in the midst of my hostility.

Perhaps part of the frustration is this whole concept of a "system of values." I try to change my values if I discover something new (or old) that is worthwhile. But people like Boulez do not. They simply condemn what does not fit into their system. It is a kind of intellectual tyranny oddly reminiscent of Victorian repression over an art that above all must remain completely free to any idea, feeling or influence for its creation.

re: Boulez. I'm basically against him - he is arrogant and imperious, a musical bully - but I'm worried you overdo things. There's a suspicious neatness about it. For instance, you dislike his published musical opinions, and you somehow turn this into him being a bad conductor. There have been several great conductors with terrible opinions (Becham, Furtwangler, and especially Karajan). I think Boulez is a great conductor of certain kinds of music. His recent Mahler cycles are not great, but surely that's no surprise.

Have you ever sat in an orchestra pit yourself and tried to make sense of those vague, windmill-like motions some bad conductors make? If you have, you'd realize why Boulez has been a force for good in conducting. Boulez started conducting because he didn't want to hear inaccurate performances of his music. His obsession has been with giving the precise, unambiguous cues players need if they're going to play rhythmically complex music well. That makes him seem cold, more like a traffic cop than a romantic hero, and in romantic music, it's probably just wrong. But I'd say all younger conductors performing, say, Stravinsky or Messiaen have learned from his example, and the general standard of all performances of this repertoire have improved as a consequence.

Turning to Boulez's own music, I like some - not all - of it. For all that he's obsessed with the "development of musical language", his greatest gift is actually as a colorist. The best thing about much of it is the intriguing choice of timbres. My favorite piece is "Eclat", with its trilling cimbaloms. It's a bizarre thought that, even though Boulez's nemesis as a composer is probably Steve Reich, they actually like very similar sounds (mallet instruments especially).

Tha's interesting, Guy and yes I've sat in orchestra pits and done my best to avoid conductors. In fact the conductor of one symphony I was in was so bad the entire orchestra had to ignore him as a normal routine or they would be thrown off.

But I wasn't trying to extrapolate from criticism of his composing to his conducting. I was referring to some specific recordings. However I see what you're saying about the specificity of cues, etc.

Along these lines I remember one somewhat insane conductor I knew who was also a composer. He told me that he was rehearsing "Rite of Spring" and the orchestra was unable to play the meter changes, so he put the whole thing into 4/4 with syncopation and they played it just fine.

I doubt if Boulez would approve of that approach...

@William said:

Along these lines I remember one somewhat insane conductor I knew who was also a composer. He told me that he was rehearsing "Rite of Spring" and the orchestra was unable to play the meter changes, so he put the whole thing into 4/4 with syncopation and they played it just fine.

I doubt if Boulez would approve of that approach...

All the orchestras that I work with would refuse to play a re-barred version of "Rite" (and have done), because as they point out, when you know how it goes it is almost impossible to read with alternative notation.

DG

It's interesting we're talking about the "Rite Of Spring". I can't think of another piece of music which could ever sound as shockingly, suddenly "new" as that one. Original, new, modern (but atavistic and barbaric too). Stravinsky "samples" so much of it from elsewhere - Lithuanian folk songs, Skryabin, Rimsky Korsakov - but it STILL feels original, modern, new. I don't even hear a historical period in it so much - Stockhausen's "Gruppen", by comparison, sounds far more of its era (though to be fair, I've never heard it in a concert performance).

Here's a thought, one which could unite VSL's hardcore avant-gardists with its film score composers. I think originality must be a product of context. Once you've decided to do a ballet about barbaric pagan rituals & human sacrifice you're forced to come up with noises & rhythms you'd never think of if you're just sat at the piano trying to write a symphony or a string quartet. Once you've decided to write a piece of music to comemorate the horrors of the Hiroshima bomb (as in Penderecki's Threnody) you know you can't just write schmaltzy romantic melodies in E-flat Major - you're going to have to go to the limit to find sounds appropriate to that context. One of my favourite American composers is George Crumb, & his sonic originality always has an extreme context to inspire it; his Black Angels is inspired by the horrors of the Vietnam war, for instance.

(It's always like this. Monteverdi, when Artusi criticizes him for breaking the rules of the Palestrina style, says look, I need stronger music because I need to depict stronger emotions. Wagner pushes the harmonic system further for the sake of the drama.)

Laters

Guy

@"Guy SigsworthOnce you've decided to write a piece of music to comemorate the horrors of the Hiroshima bomb (as in Penderecki's Threnody)[/quote said:

[quote="Guy SigsworthOnce you've decided to write a piece of music to comemorate the horrors of the Hiroshima bomb (as in Penderecki's Threnody)

HA! That has to be one of the the biggest con-jobs in music. It's original title was 8' 37" (named for its duration, don't you know)
After several people commented on the extreme emotional impact it had on them, Penderecki changed it's name to "Threnody". After more performances and more "emotional impact"-type comments Penderecki changed the title once again to "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima"

How can a title like that not make a difference to the way you hear that piece?

I like the piece, and some other works of P, but I think he's an asshole.

best,
John

ROFL. That's f***ng hilarious about Pendorecki. What an arse!

Evan Evans

P.S. Although, come to think of it, I might do the same myself someday given the same conditions! [;)]

D****it you're right, I've put the cart before the horse -the Hiroshima title came later - which does rather mess up my theory!javascript:emoticon('[:O]ops:')

Guy

If this is true it shows the obvious equation: DISSONANCE = HORROR

I find this amusing, since the atonalists ever since Schoenberg have wanted everyone to believe that "a minor second is as beautiful as a major third" - Schoenberg. And yet Mr. Penderecki - the God of the avant garde - creates a cacophony, then gets a big reaction of horror from people, and so he decides to capitalize on it. And yet this contradicts the entire concept of dissonance is beautiful. Funny.

@William said:

If this is true it shows the obvious equation: DISSONANCE = HORROR

I find this amusing, since the atonalists ever since Schoenberg have wanted everyone to believe that "a minor second is as beautiful as a major third" - Schoenberg. And yet Mr. Penderecki - the God of the avant garde - creates a cacophony, then gets a big reaction of horror from people, and so he decides to capitalize on it. And yet this contradicts the entire concept of dissonance is beautiful. Funny.

Not to split hairs, but Shoenberg wrote Pantonal music, not Atonal. I know that you said since S, but I must say that some of his serial music is beautiful, as is the music of Berg. Others in the same "school" I could do without quite comfortably.
I must also piont out that a major 3rd (when played in tune) is a horrible interval, due to the fact that the loudest resultant tone is an augmented 4th below the lower note. This is something that Brahms found out too late to save the end of Sonatensatz... [:(]

DG

@William said:

If this is true it shows the obvious equation: DISSONANCE = HORROR

For most people this is true. Students very often use words like "creepy" when asked to comment on music with unresolved dissonances.
I think for the average listener (who, lets face it, is usually rather uneducated musically) a large part of this reaction is due to music's use in film. Your average Joe listener needs to see an image when he hears music.

Schoenberg's comments re beauty I take with a pinch of salt. There is almost no point talking about an interval as an aesthetic entity. How does the thing get used in context? There are achingly beautiful minor seconds in tonal music, and achingly dull ones in non-tonal music...
I always supposed that Schoenberg was on his didactic rant about emancipation of the dissonance, trying to force everyone to think like him.

best,
John

@JohnA said:

There are achingly beautiful minor seconds in tonal music, and achingly dull ones in non-tonal music...

er, lest it be thought I'm FOR tonal and AGAINST non-tonal, I should qualify the above statement and say I don't think all minor seconds behave this way in music...

best,
John

Must defend Penderecki. He is a kind, tolerant, intelligent, artistic human.

There might be a little pompousness, like Verdi maybe; there is certainly a shrewdness when dealing with public perceptions, like nearly any successful artist; the story is true-ish, that the piece came before the title. But the combination of piece and title is what has become important in his work, and his combination of characteristics have made him what he is.

Pantonal vs. atonal is a useless distinction. Pantonality is obviously a class of atonality since all tones simultaneously negate tonality. Schoenberg is however mainly known as a serialist.

A major third a horrible interval? It depends on the scale - tempered or natural or whatever tuning you wish to use.

I agree with John A about how these things are just too subjective to establish as principles. Also about how context is everything. That is what irritated me with Schoenberg's original statement, because he seemed to be removing context. Though perhaps that was not his intention. I also like some of Schoenberg and can easily see why he just had to do something different - after Gurrelieder.

I hope I'm not becoming a conservative reactionary(!), but I basically agree with William. Atonality/pantonality tends to be emotionally monochrome. It’s great for portraying paranoia, neurosis & the dark side, but not so good with other emotions. Schoenberg’s atonal Holocaust document "A Survivor From Warsaw" rightly shocks & horrifies me, but his atonal opera-buffo comedy "Von Heute auf Morgen" doesn’t make me smile at all. Of course the "vulgar" atonality found in film music corroborates this - it's used for tension, disaster, horror, but not for, say, romantic bedroom scenes. Could atonality be used to depict ecstatic happiness, an atonal "Gloria In Excelsis Deo"? If it can, I haven't heard the piece that does this - yet.
Classical tonality is a multi-dimensional universe of 168 (24 times 7) notes. In this universe "A" as the 3rd of F major is completely different from "A" as the key note of A major, & any good musician knows how to play with these multiple meanings. Schoenberg flattens it down to a single 12-note mode, a single chromatic raag, in a single emotional plane. All that multi-dimensional play (or ‘modulation’) is lost. There is a kind of play between serial transpositions, retrogrades & inversions & so on, but it doesn't begin to equal what's been discarded. Imagine a great Indian musician, say Hariprasad Chaurasia, living his entire life performing in a single raag, with a single emotional association, a single time of day. That’s what serialism feels like to me.
I'm not saying serial music is rubbish, because there are masterpieces of that single atonal raag: Pierrot Lunaire, the String Trio, Webern Opus 5 etc.


Laters

Guy