@Carter said:

i'm trying to get a big brass sound with vsl, i know this is primary due to the composition, but also to the eq settings, reverb etc...

so this is a short excerpt :

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/moh2.mp3


what do you think ?

i used :
-3 instances of S1 imager : 1 for cello, 1 for horns, 1 for trombones
- 3 instances of voxengo pristine space : 1 for cello, 1 for horns, 1 for trombones ( it was pretty slow because of that, i should bounce to wav each track [:)] )

edit : i just uploaded an updated version with a reverb a little more wet on the Horns.

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/moh3.mp3

Hey, you got it. Like I've said before, Is it possible to make anything sound bad with VSL? [H]

~Chris

What are you missing exactly?

updated version ,i added some legato here and there... a snare ensembles behind, and i had a hard pain to do convincing staccato, i think with more dynamic layers it would be better and easier to do but anyway that doesn't matter...

. http://annecywebtv.Free.fr/moh.mp3

and now : the original version played by the prague filmharmonic orchestra i think ... the difference is noticable, but i think with a little more work on the EQ and reverb and we can have the same sound with vsl

http://annecywebtv.free.fr/mohoriginal.mp3

What did you say Mathis ? Do you meant "What do you want ? "
I just want to have a big sound like we hear usually in film musics, everybody says (for example : northernsounds guys) we can't have a big sound with VSL because it's not sampled in a state-of-the-art hall, but i don't agree with this affirmation...

The original excerpt sounds like it uses Tuba (playing down an octave) with the trombone section. That would definitely add more "oumph". [H]

My question was what kind of problem you have. If you were seeking for instrumentation advice or mixing advice.
So, mixingwise, the biggest difference is the reverb. Go for a long reverb and boost some lows in it to match the real recording. Also the double basses call for increased deep end. (Did you double the celli with double basses one octave lower? If yes, rise their level quite a lot.)
Yes, in the ending brass try a Tuba, but also try the trmobones one octave lower.
Decrease the high mids of celli and horns, eqwise.

The Prague orch definitely has basses doubling the cellos (at the octave)... that's the only obvious addition I'd make.

J.

Playing what piece, jbm?! Just about every classical piece does that. I mean, it's not like the conductor just tells the basses to read over their shoulders!

Huh?

Nick, I'm sorry but I don't get what you're saying...

By "Prague orch" I meant the original recording posted above, the one Carter is trying to replicate. It sounded, to me, as though there were no Basses at all on the VSL version, so I was just pointing out that doubling the celli with basses would fill out the sound -- that it was the basses that were "missing".

J.

A lot of the pieces use only one voice for bass instruments, that may contain basson, double basses and celli playing in unison, while double basses transpose everything noted on paper an octave down (E3 may be noted and stroked by the player, but the outcoming sound equals an E2).

The double bass players should look over the cellists shoulders in order to see their notes to get those played and playing in unison.

Wow, I'm getting confused...

It seems like there's two lines of communication going on here, one that refer's to the _sound_ of a piece, and the other that refers to the way it's written on paper. Personally, I still write directly to score -- Finale, step input, note-by-note -- so I'm always thinking in terms of how an idea is presented on paper (and yes, this does immediately take into account concert pitch, transposing instruments, and so on). So I can't quite understand where the confusion's coming from in this thread... But it's bringing up some interesting thoughts, in my head anyway, about what we mean when we say "score".

In fact, I'm going to start a new thread in "Orchestration...", just to see where this discussion goes!

J.

Double basses doubling celli means playing the same note* results in unison lines. The other possibility is that celli and double basses do not play the same notes* written on paper too, they are representing two voices of their own, just like the violins have their own voice in an arrangement.

PolarBear

*pitch=note - not to confuse even more [;)]

Huh?

Sorry PolarBear, I really wasn't looking for any explanation. I'm in no way unclear on these basic principles of orchestration. Actually, I was just trying to respond to that very strange statement of Nick's, without being rude. In fact, I still can't figure out what he was getting at with the "over the shoulder" thing... hmmm.

Anyway... The quick explanation of my original reply: I listened to the Prague orchestra recording, and listened to Carter's demo. The Prague recording had basses doubling celli (yes, that does mean "at the octave"), so I mentioned it to help Carter. That's all.

J.

[edit]

I didn't understand that the post was about a particular recording, jbm. Without that context, the post I was answering seemed strange!

But I think we're on the same page now...

Cool, Nick... I wondered if that was the case!

J.