@mike harper said:

[[:|]] if you dont like runs etc don't use them

Rub your thumb down the side of a lampshade to get the right result, if it works. Record yourself on the crapper and play it backwards, for all I care.




Ahhh...the levity, at last.

@Fred Story said:

Rub your thumb down the side of a lampshade to get the right result, if it works. Record yourself on the crapper and play it backwards, for all I care.

Ahhh...the levity, at last.[/quote]

Yeah! And then shove it through a Ring Modulator (no pun intended). Then you get The Tardis from Dr Who taking off and landing. Think about that for a second! EEEEEURRR EEEEEURRR EEEEURRRR...

If it works, use it!

Actually Fred, I was being serious. First time I lost my temper on this Forum. Net result. Lunacy.

I enjoy your posts. Keep them coming.

I'm feeling very much relieved now [:)]
(no pun intended)

PaulR

Herb...

Simply awesome...

Can you lift the veil on other upcoming Horizon products? Or at what time I can get my filthy hands on them? [:D]

@herb said:

Interesting discussion.

Just want to add, that I'm mapping the piccolo runs at the moment.
We'll include them as a bonus file on our upcoming "French Oboe" Horizon release. And later I plan to enable a free download for our Pro Performance set users.

best
Herb

Thats great Herb. Although Mozart, Beethoven, Mussorgsky and Evan Evans won't be using them .... thousands of us will. It will be an incredible addition to an incredible product.

Thank you,

Shawn Patterson

The official announcement of the upcoming Horizons will happen in a few weeks.
But this time we don't make a big "suspense story" about the upcoming releases, therefore I can share some infos.

1. The "French oboe"
Extensive like our Vienna Oboe of the Pro Edition, but of course with a major focus on vibrato performances.
There will be included two smaller bonus instruments:
an english horn with vibrato performance legati,
and an Eb clarinett.

2. Chamber Strings
Also a very voluminous release.
6 Violins, 4 viola, 3 celli, 2 bassi.
The major extensions here are "performance detaches" and "spicatti", (like our solo violin)

3. 8 Horn section
The performance legato costed a fortune. [[:|]] I don't like to count the recording sessions we've needed. This time the legatos are performed starting with B1!

4. Woodwind ensembles
3 flute, 3 oboes, 3 clarinettes, 3 bassoons

5. Harps
A dedicated harp release, including our Harp of the First/Pro Edition plus a new second harp.
The 2nd harp does not have any glissandis, here we focused a little more on special playing techniques.
Also the normal plugs do have 2 variations of each note (1+2).
This release is dedicated to all scores, which need 2 harps performing.

best
Herb

Oh my. [[:|]] [:D]

When will there be demos, Herb? [:)]

Herb -

That's fantastic news. Now I can finally use the oboe instead of having to load up Miroslav's.

However, you mention this will be a Horizon release. This seems to indicate that we'll have to purchase the oboe separately. I thought sometime back you had mentioned making the French oboe free? (Or am I just a little bit too absentminded/hopeful?)

Oh, and as a final note: PLEASE let the next horizon recording be a choir!

Damn!

I just realized that Herb is the single most upsetting person on this forum.
And he is completely pleasant, calm and respectful. He really knows how to do it.

In all fairness, I have to say I have some of the same feelings Evan has - but I draw the line at a different point. I personally am not interested in *phrases* - meaning that I have nothing against anyone else using whatever works for them; I just don't consider octave runs, trills, grace notes, harp glisses, and repeated notes (i.e. the Repetition tool) to be in that category.

Herb,

Thanks. That's cool. I am glad you are giving people the runs they desire and all this great stuff. Keep 'em coming! I am really interested in the Fr.Oboe and the E/Hrn.

Can you say if you are just NOT going to make a 2nd Violins section? if you say "it's not completely vetoed at this point", that would make me happy!

Evan Evans

@Nick Batzdorf said:

In all fairness, I have to say I have some of the same feelings Evan has - but I draw the line at a different point. I personally am not interested in *phrases* - meaning that I have nothing against anyone else using whatever works for them; I just don't consider octave runs, trills, grace notes, harp glisses, and repeated notes (i.e. the Repetition tool) to be in that category.

Yes you do. And I feel the same way. If other's want to use them, "knock yourself out". But my line is drawn at any performance locking you into a sequence of notes greater than two.

That's my line. Drawn. Also I do NOT believe in using sampled crescendos and diminuendos. I use a breath controller with looped dynamic layers instead. Each curve is different and realistic every time and I can go UP and DOWN and back UP, and DOWN a little, etc.

And for runs I can use modes and scales other than 'stock" runs.

Evan Evans

"Also I do NOT believe in using sampled crescendos and diminuendos."

What!!??

Man, you just lost me there. Sampled dynamic changes and the legato are the two best things about the VSL.

@Another User said:

And for runs I can use modes and scales other than 'stock" runs.

Everyone does, but the "stock" runs in VSL consist of all the major and minor modes. That covers a lot of ground.

I do believe in using sampled crescs and dims if they happen to fit. The problem is that you can't control the rate even if the length happens to fit, so I almost always end up going for the 3-lay programs. But when the sampled ones work, they sound better.

Oh, and I really like those combination programs that use the mod wheel to switch between cresc and dim. Most of the time they're the best programs for sustained notes in phrases, I find; there's nothing worse than a sustained note that just sits there without moving (unless it's appropriate, like a sustained pedal).

Outstanding Herb.

So now the only question who remains is... when?

Re: runs.
Piccolo or flute runs are hardly different than timpani rolls, or cymbal rolls. You can't make a run/roll composed of individual samples sound as a real run, with mistuning, clicking and all. Or at least I can't. And I don't want to spend 1 hour to make a Cm7 simple run.

Having a 'useable snippet' of the real thing helps to enhance the lie we're creating: that the music is performed by a real orchestra.

Consequently, I want them. Herb gave me great news.

-René

The cross fade instruments are great I agree, but the cresc/dim samples are surprisingly malleable in useage regarding time values, especially with starting them earlier with a cross fade, or simply cutting them off earlier. In other words you don't have to use the exact timing unless you need the extremes. Also, I have changed tempo just to be able to use the authentic dynamics. This along with the legato is the most crucial element of realism.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

I do believe in using sampled crescs and dims if they happen to fit. The problem is that you can't control the rate even if the length happens to fit, so I almost always end up going for the 3-lay programs. But when the sampled ones work, they sound better.

I'm not into using sampled performances just because they sound better. I prefer to use the legato instruments to do trills, the dynamic layers to do dynamics, etc.

Just because it sounds better to use sampled "phrases" doesn't make it right. This has been everyone's argument all along, and yours about "better sounding crescendos" isn't any better.

Evan Evans

Evan, I don't "argue" that anything I do is better or more right than anything else, I'm just saying how I like to work.

But I don't understand why you would feel that a sampled crescendo is any different from using any other articulation. You just pick the one that best fits what you're trying to express.

And to me the difference is pretty clear: phrases are made out of notes; articulations are ways of playing the notes that make up phrases!

Wiliam, I agree that the crescendos and dims are versatile. My point is that you can't control the rate of dynamic change. So if you want a brass cresc to get into the buzzy range sooner than it does, for example, you're out of luck. But you can layer a solo 3-lay with the dynamic samples and make it work that way. That smooths out the bumps in the 3-lays (especially in the EXS version) as well.

@evanevans said:

Just because it sounds better to use sampled "phrases" doesn't make it right. This has been everyone's argument all along, and yours about "better sounding crescendos" isn't any better.

Evan Evans

Some might argue the mere fact that you deliver ANY final score from a sample library instead of contracting live musicians would not be "right".


Shawn

"Just because it sounds better to use sampled "phrases" doesn't make it right. This has been everyone's argument all along, and yours about "better sounding crescendos" isn't any better. " - Evan Evans

No, but on the crescendos/diminuendos there is one thing that does make it right - it is more expressive. Much more. I think this is the most crucial difference between sampler and live players. On almost every note of a live performance, you will hear dynamic changes. That is why I am so enthusiastic about the VSL's emphasis on them, because they give much more expressive shape and nuance to any musical line.

Nick, I agree completely with you on the layered instruments. I was just trying to point out that just because a cresc. or dim. sample is listed as three seconds, it doesn't mean that your crescendo has to be that exactly. It can be anything from maybe 1.5 to 3, depending on the intensity of the change, and that same leeway applies to all the others. Since you have 1.5, 2, 3, or 6 second ones to chose from, you've got almost everything covered, especially if you do something like fading in or out after a cresc. or dim. has started and thereby further adjust its timing.

I am very adamant about the importance of these dynamic samples. The extensiveness of them is what separates this library from all others, especially the EWQLSO.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Evan, I don't "argue" that anything I do is better or more right than anything else, I'm just saying how I like to work.

Well that's not what I was saying anyway. I have no qualms with your choice, and indeed, I am sure that recorded crescs/dims are highly useable for you (indeed they are useable for me). I was just saying that the idea of using recorded crescendos in place of the MIDI equivalent (dynamic layers with controller input), is not any better in the argument/debate that seems to have stirred from me bringing my opinion of where to draw the line than the original piccolo run example. It is a sampled performance. Of course it's going to sound better using an actual recorded performance. But my theory/philisophy/moral/ethic stance is that if it can be done with MIDI, albeit worse, than that's all that MIDI qualifies you to do, outside of an actual performance. This is just a purist viewpoint, which mainly has to do with preserving the integrity of the art of composition and performance in a world where MIDI is available and in the future other "things" will be available. But as long as a crescendo is controlled than I am all for whatever technology uses it. I guess this comes from a disdain of digital over analog. I am for controlling the performance and not being a slave to it.

I see someone who uses "phrases" similar to a collage artist. Sure there's a place for it and some people buy it, but I think Picasso, Van Gogh, DaVinci, Michelangelo, etc. would be rolling in their graves. I adhere to a level of standards so as to keep the integrity of my predecessors using the same standards preserved. having a respect for that level of the art automatically creates "lines" to be drawn. And for those fighting to preserve such integrity, IT'S A GOOD THING. Although "collage artists" have a built in bias to argue to the otherwise. Even though Picasso, etc knew how to collage just fine, and chose NOT to do it.

[edit]That's not to imply that Picasso, nor I, do not have respect for it. I love hearing your guys music, however you make it. But hopefully you understand what I am saying, and at that point, then I'll shutup. [:)]

Evan Evans