Evan-

Let me create a scenario - You are hired to produce a sample based orchestral piece for professional presentation. This compostion is not strung together loops, but, something that took a long time to construct relying on quality sample based libraries (VSL, for example). You are saying, even with this in mind, to add a simple portamento on the top of, say, two beats is "disgusting" ?

You work within sample libraries as well as live musicians, correct? How then, are you able to produce a heavily orchestrated score using all conventional and unconventional orchestration techniques and deliver in a timely manner? When I say "timely" of course, I am saying you know, 12 - 14 hour days laboring to get original sample based music to sound as real as possible. Unless, you have no deadlines, I am confused how this can be seen as doing "so little".

I do admire your passion for film music.

S

The other thing is that recorded runs, rolls, glisses, etc. sound different from what you can play/program.

And in the case of the octave string runs, I think the effect is fuzzy enough that a listener would only hear it was sampled if you were to repeat the lick over and over with no time in between - and then probably only if it was exposed. It's just an ornament, and more often than not you'd have a cymbal, harp gliss, flute or picc, etc. doubling it anyway.

Now, i thoroughly think this matter needs some differentiation unless we head for broad strokes the likes of 'samples suck', in which case the discussion is truly pointless.

I do subscribe to the point that it's not the nicest way of going 'Hm, i have no idea what to play next, let's have a look at the Loops & Licks department, this will certainly help me out... yeah, this sounds nice, i wonder what's it made of..ah, never mind, there it goes. Next !'

I don't think this scenario is really a point of debate here.

But then there's the other case where you have, say, an octave gliss in your mental or tangible score, and you want to deliver this as convincingly as you can. Now, the obvious way is to hire the proper players in the proper room and record it properly. But there's the production budget that doesn't allow for this. So you say 'Nope, then you're not getting an octave gliss from me.' ? Or do you go ahead and try to build it from the raw samples, as you propose ? Perfectly knowing that that distinct quality of a performed gliss with all its quirks is just not in there ? No, wait, by using samples at all you *do* actually SO LITTLE, so pulling it off on a home entertainer GM keyboard will certainly bump up the artistic value of achievement. Right ?

>I could "write" many composers under the table

While this is undoubtedly true, i utterly fail to see the connection of this statement to this thread. There's not much art in literally 'writing' an octave gliss, or is it ? Figuring out if, how and where it goes is the work and you can't delegate that to the sampler.We're not talking about composing, we're talking about bringing the composition to sound. Please enlighten me.

Christian


[URL=http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/Gearlist.htm]gear list [/URL] [URL=http://uk.geocities.com/christianobermaier/Studio.htm]studio pics [/URL] [URL=http://www.artofthegroove.com/logic/mp3/Christian_Obermaier_demo.mp3]show reel[/URL]

The bells are ringing and the choir has sounded....

Thank you, Christian.

S

Back to serious mode on the subject, obviously.

I totally agree with the notion that if, for example, you need a fast swell into a dynamic change, and you would write a harp gliss/violin octave run/doubled with flutes, what sense does it make to try to recreate the nuance of that sound note-by-note, IF you have an excellent sample of the gliss/runs that sound correct in the context of the orchestration? Sure it's easier...sometimes. But does that in and of itself make it wrong? Or cheating? Even if it SOUNDS better?

It smacks of art for art's sake...and certainly work for work's sake. Geez, of course we'd all LOVE to have an 80 piece orchestra playing on every gig we score. But even the illustrious Mr. Evans seems doomed to the necessity of sample-based scores.

And yes, even if Mozart admonished me, my answer would be the same. Pay for my orchestra and I'd be DELIGHTED to skip to sampled runs.

And "anyone on the other side of this argument is to blame"? Well, despite Evan's occasional egomaniacal rantings, I've always grinned and looked past it because he's obviously extremely talented and intelligent. (Even though I've been doing this for over 20 years, I know I still don't know a lot, and I'm eager to learn wherever I can.) But comments like this? Despite these fine qualities and your musical lineage, I've just stopped paying attention, Mr. Evans.

No doubt you will see this as my loss. But something tells me I'll survive, somehow.

Fred Story

On the Mozart issue:
If he were alive today, he'd probably be using VSL and certainly would use the string runs and harp glisses as that would save him precious time in the bar or pool hall. I mean....damn....he'd dash off a movement as fast as possible just to get out the door and go and get legless.

How can we possibly respect someone with a substance abuse problem like that? If Mozart admonished me, I'd laugh at him.

Bach however would be a different matter.......

Colin [[;)]]

wow- i had no idea that my question would spark such a firestorm of debate. personally, i'm not a big fan of "loops and licks" either, but have been known to use them when they fit the bill and time is tight.

however, my efforts to sequence fast scales, runs, rips and such have been fairly unconvincing (to me) over the years, so i was really looking forward to gaining that facility for the pic in the PE-i've gotten pretty satisfying results from what's included with the other instruments so far. silly me for not scrutinizing the articulation list more thoroughly [:P] (not that i'm at all dissappointed otherwise).

btw-kudos to the Vienna crew for using standard articulation names and consistent naming and articulations across all instruments. it makes the library much easier to learn. i bought qlso gold recently and am finding it's nomenclature somewhat haphazard and confusing to learn.

peace-out
juano

Anyway, this is VSL and the topics here are related to samples. I made my point about my opinion. You guys are welcome to coherse more recorded patterns, licks, phrases out of VSL if you want. I don't believe in using them however. That's all. [edited=apparently that's not all as Iposted some more below. sorry. [:)] ]

Evan Evans

@SMP3602 said:

You work within sample libraries as well as live musicians, correct? How then, are you able to produce a heavily orchestrated score using all conventional and unconventional orchestration techniques and deliver in a timely manner? When I say "timely" of course, I am saying you know, 12 - 14 hour days laboring to get original sample based music to sound as real as possible. Unless, you have no deadlines, I am confused how this can be seen as doing "so little".

By actually writing every note and nuance. maybe I have to chalk this up to having great orchestration skills, but I do not find it a problem to come up with a creative orchestrational solution to a particular budget/schedule and be able to execute it without non-musical based MAGIC TRICKS.

I just don't know what else to say. I write the music. Every note. I used to use "licks" and "phrases" but ultimately I was ashamed of what it meant to me and others as I represented myself as an artist. Eventually this grew to become disgust with anyone who uses them. I am sorry if I am a little unforgiving in this respect, but it is only my opinion and a reflection of my own artistry. Sometimes it can become an argument about YOUR ethics and morals against MY ethics and morals.

I'm not going to do anything politically to those who continue to use sampled compositions (Phrase, licks, runs, etc.). But I think I am doing my art some good by opening them to my perspective, which many of the most critical in my field agree with. The most time tested results will come from those who pass the utmost scrutiny. maybe some of you are JUST in it for the money. Fine. I hope nice guys don't finish last though, because we are doing more respectable work!

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

There's not much art in literally 'writing' an octave gliss, or is it ? Figuring out if, how and where it goes is the work and you can't delegate that to the sampler.We're not talking about composing, we're talking about bringing the composition to sound. Please enlighten me.

Christian

Well Christian, thank you for putting it that way, because I feel that I'd like to enlighten you. Apparently I am not doing it very well, but, actually there is MUCH art in writing the octave gliss, especially when it's different everytime. There is the timeless issue of being able to communicate later the entire compostion down to it's purest technical qualities should it need to be translated or re-performed. If you are writing for just the one momentary project than you are trapping your art to it. There is no future for concert work without the composer's help. My sequences are such that I could throw them into Sibelius and every nuance of the musical compositon will be there.

Evan Evans

@musos said:

How can we possibly respect someone with a substance abuse problem like that? If Mozart admonished me, I'd laugh at him. Colin [[;)]]

Of course you would Colin.

wow- i had no idea that my question would spark such a firestorm of debate

You need to get out more John


I'm not going to do anything politically to those who continue to use sampled compositions (Phrase, licks, runs, etc.).

Thats very kind of you Evan. Thank you so much.


[:P]

@PaulR said:

I'm not going to do anything politically to those who continue to use sampled compositions (Phrase, licks, runs, etc.).
Thats very kind of you Evan. Thank you so much.
[:P]

paulR, where did you buy your sense of humor? I want to get it too! [[;)]]

lol

Evan Evans

There you go again. Its me, me, me.



Woolworths.

All right Evan...

You say you'd make picc runs out of grace notes, eh?

CHEATER!

Where's your integrity? Any composer worth his salt *writes* the grace note!

[6]

Christian[/quote]Well Christian, thank you for putting it that way, because I feel that I'd like to enlighten you. Apparently I am not doing it very well, but, actually there is MUCH art in writing the octave gliss, especially when it's different everytime. There is the timeless issue of being able to communicate later the entire compostion down to it's purest technical qualities should it need to be translated or re-performed.

If you are writing for just the one momentary project than you are trapping your art to it.

There is no future for concert work without the composer's help. My sequences are such that I could throw them into Sibelius and every nuance of the musical compositon will be there.

Evan Evans[/quote]

Wow - there is so much to comment on here... I don't think anyone is removing value from being able to notate and orchestrate ones own work. They are, to be sure, prized skills to possess. I do not think that was the original point. The point was the use of a portamento/glissando sample to give some realism (quickly and sounding great) to an original compostion - and not merely a composition constructed by linking up sample loops.

"Trapping your art to it"? If you get hired to do a professional job (especially television) you do the best you can with the budget provided. Some Composers cut corners constantly because thats all they can do. Many do not. As I said previously, talent will emerge and less talented will too. Every composer who works professionally must make constant choices that they must live with.

>>My sequences are such that I could throw them into Sibelius and every nuance of the musical compositon will be there.>>

Thats terrific. You produce everything you do in this manner? Always? Regardless of the schedule? (feel free to insert here your own self righteous remarks of your renowned speed/agility in orchestrating... again....)

You do not believe John Williams to be a strong composer? I am not quoting you, dear sir, so, please go easy on me......

Evan, while I do admire your enthusiam for this medium, you continue to come across as angry. Bernie was an angry composer but you know... he WAS Bernard Herrmann and directors lined up to put up with him because of his legend. I hope you have the same "chutzpah" to go with that soapbox.

S

I think anyone who argues with Evan ought to take a listen to some of his music. It is fantastic, and I believe he is a master in the use of sampling. I agree with his purist approach, and have to admit I have never once been able to use or stand to use a pre-recorded run or "lick" in anything I've yet done. Though I am not looking down on anyone who does it. I'm sure it works in some situations but I have also (besides Evan) never encountered them.

WARNING: Long post. Apologies in advance.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that every member of this forum is someone who is serious about their craft, who works hard, and is committed to creating music of lasting value. Naturally, depending on how far down the path we've come, we all bring different levels of skill and experience to our efforts. But given what I read here, it's pretty clear that everyone CARES about the work.

So for someone like Evan to bombard us with drivel like "Sometimes it can become an argument about YOUR ethics and morals against MY ethics and morals." Ethics and morals when we're talking about sampled licks and runs? Give me a break. Or the capper, "maybe some of you are JUST in it for the money. Fine. I hope nice guys don't finish last though, because we are doing more respectable work!"

Okay, let me recap: I have no ethics or morals, I'm just in it for the money, I don't do respectable work, and I'm not even a nice guy. Guess I'd better tell my wife, my employees, and my clients...many of whom have been loyal to me for almost twenty years. Boy, will they be shocked.

I remember when I was 4 or 5 years into what became 7 years of private composition study with Ziggy Hurwitz, I looked at him one day and said, "You know, every week I feel more stupid." He asked me to explain. "Well, the more I learn - the more I realize how much I DON'T know, and the stupider I feel." Ziggy just smiled and said, "Well, Bubby...NOW you're getting it!" (I still don't know why he called me 'Bubby'.)

Also, on a few occasions, I feel lucky to have spent some time with those whom I would consider great artists. Funny thing...not ONE of them felt the need to regale me with reminders about what great artists they are. In fact, if anything they were self-deprecating...focused on what they'd yet to accomplish...focused on the work...and focused on giving back to the musical community in any way they could. Not critical, judgemental or disrespectful of those trying to navigate their own musical path. And they all seemed to express a genuine interest in what I was doing musically. These are the qualities I most admired in them, and try the hardest to emulate - though I know I come up short.

I don't post here often, but I read as often as I can with a busy workload. I appreciate the generosity and knowledge I get here...even from the ubiquitous Mr. Evans. But I sure hope he comes to realize someday that the solar system doesn't spin around his "artistry". His disdain and lack of respect - not to mention complete conviction that at any given moment he's right and everyone else is wrong - just make me shake my head and say, "Evan, Evan, Evan."

Sorry, still can't be mad at him when he's so clueless.

Okay now. Quick. Someone fire off a little levity, would ya'?

Fred Story

Fred -

We should get together for a beer after "WORK"....you summed it all up.

Your "sell out, whore" of a pal,

Shawn

@Nick Batzdorf said:

All right Evan...
You say you'd make picc runs out of grace notes, eh?
CHEATER!
Where's your integrity? Any composer worth his salt *writes* the grace note!
[6]

Now we're talking. Although you seem to have "graced" over the fact that the grace note legato instruments work fine as an alternate legato instrument, and work especially well for fast runs. it's basically a FAST legato. Almost emphasized.

But thanks for backing me up, that picc runs could be done with grace legato.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

Evan, while I do admire your enthusiam for this medium, you continue to come across as angry. Bernie was an angry composer but you know... he WAS Bernard Herrmann and directors lined up to put up with him because of his legend. I hope you have the same "chutzpah" to go with that soapbox.

I'm not worried. And I'm not continually angry. I have other feelings too! [:)] In fact, I am continually happy!

Evan Evans