hmmm, reminds me of that John Lithgow line from 'The World According to Garp' which goes something like he/she "was born with an extraordinary capacity to piss people off"....said with affection of course.

Dave C

@evanevans said:

And although I am not narcissistic, I am here on earth for MY purpose. Although it's all about me, I believe my purpose is to contribute MY soul to society in art and diary, so as to further mankind, to contribute to mankind's evolution and understanding of life and creation.

And I totally agree with you that sometimes what a person says can really be taken the wrong way. I just wish someone would give me a clipping and say, "Here. Here's where you offended us, disrespected us, said terrible things ..." whatever. because I honestly don't feel that way. But apparently people are taking things the wrong way. Especially Fred Story. I think he's great, but he seems to really like to bash me. I tried to understand it, but all I could come up with is that he is a sensitive person trying to protect sensitive people. Well I certainly love all people even those who are sensitive, but that shouldn't inhibit me from having strong viewpoints. I don't push them, I just preach them. [:)]

Evan Evans

Since selective memory seems to be at play here, let me provide a quick refresher. REALIZING that people's words can be misconstrued in an email, I asked if Evan's comment about use of sampled runs and phrases was MEANT to sound condesending. His answer? Depends on which side of the argument you're on.

But there's more, gentle reader. People who use these evil devices disgust him. They use crutches. They're a sellout. Maybe they're just in it for the money.

Then there's the comment about the difference between Evan's purist approach and "the quick and the lame" approach. Lame, why? Because it's not HIS approach? And of course there's my insecurity problem, and that I'm just trying to be a 'smorgasbord of everything'. (The personal comments just got a laugh.) And this is just a sampling of Mr. Evans' own comments throughout this tread.

And he wonders how we could EVER think that he meant to be insulting. Naive. Clueless. Well, they're ALMOST synonyms.

So poor Evan. Big mean Fred Story is always picking on him. (Despite the fact that I've described him more than once as intelligent, talented and highly skilled.) I've simply pointed out that publicly insulting people who don't agree with you is bad manners. And I've tried to do it respectfully.

However, people who not only show such bad manners, but actually try to justify them, really p**s me off. I do my best to take the high road, but I'm only human.

I learned a lesson. I had a few days off between projects and thought I'd catch up on some lively forum chat. (Litte did I know HOW lively.) My lesson is that any forum where Evan Evans pontificates is a forum I'll avoid.

But lest he think I'm just picking on him...I've dumped the bookmarks to other forums where the discourse gets rude. I like a good argument as well as the next person. I just like it to be civil and respectful. Alas, the relative anonymity of the internet has caused us to forget our manners. I know I can't change it...but I don't have to subject myself to it. And based on other posts...as well as private emails I've received over the past couple of days, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Oh, for the record, I apologize for my previous post. I posted before I thought and succumbed to a petty put-down. Not cool. Two wrongs don't make a right. (My Mother's big lesson was "Words have power. Think before you use them. Think how YOU would feel if someone used those words on you." I didn't. Please don't tell her. She'd be ashamed of me.)

Fortunately, I'm back into a new project tomorrow so no time for forum-hopping. Best to all.

Fred Story

@evanevans said:

And I totally agree with you that sometimes what a person says can really be taken the wrong way. But apparently people are taking things the wrong way. Especially Fred Story. I think he's great, but he seems to really like to bash me. I tried to understand it, but all I could come up with is that he is a sensitive person trying to protect sensitive people. Well I certainly love all people even those who are sensitive, but that shouldn't inhibit me from having strong viewpoints.

Evan Evans

Boy, you must be a riot at parties...

Taken the wrong way ? Strong viewpoints? Is that what you are trying to call that? What was that post of yours about no person being equal? How else is that one line to be taken? I am not sure if you are "playing dumb" or really this ignorant to your posts and your general tone. However, you have insulted so many people in this fourm - openly and blatantly. Its really baffling how a person who is in a creative medium can possibly spend so much time preaching, insulting and ego stroking instead of merely creating.

Fred Story's comments on you and your posts have been accurate and just served.

I can not imagine you will have much luck finding professionals in the film/television business who will care to endure your egotistical rantings.

Best of luck to you.

Shawn Patterson

@SMP3602 said:

Taken the wrong way ? Strong viewpoints? Is that what you are trying to call that? What was that post of yours about no person being equal? How else is that one line to be taken?

Well, Shaun, where its due. I mean, can you honestly say that youve never judged someone else by your own standard? Are there not people around you whom you recognise as being more/less talented than yourself? I think this is pretty natural - some of us are better at some things than others - fact!
Ive met some appalling composers - simply dreadful.

I just dont feel the need to tell them.

I guess diplomacy is also a talent - and some of us simply dont have it.

best

Dave C

(btw - Im a really bad surfer...its just the way it is)

Awesome. Thank you all for your postings. It has been most helpful. The interesting thing is that just about everything I have said is actually just fine. I meant it, that's for certain. Some I will apologize for, so hopefully those who were offended will hang in there and read along.

A problem, it seems, is I am the only one understanding what I've said to the core. It looks like I have a way of speaking that makes people "read" more into it. So what I say becomes relegated to another meaning. However, in every instance I am only saying EXACTLY what I was saying, exactly as it was said. (Again, there are things I've said worth apologizing to those who walk the fine line of dancing around and near those things that I adamantly abhor.)

So let me try to clear the air a little:

@newbiebigtime said:

While you appear to be toning down nicely, here are the clippings you requested:
[i]"The whole idea/notion of sampled composition fragments is disgusting to me. Play/Compose them yourself! Or better yet, a robot to write your music for you! wimps."

This is a great example. This was in response to an incredible backlash of people becoming so absurd that they could not find the artistic foundation and basis for respectable MIDI composition. They were saying things like "why not build your own instruments" ... "Forge your own steel" etc. To which I responded, "or build or buy a robot to make your music for you." Which quickly brought things back into perspective. The argument was about music composition and performance, to which these people were willing to let their morals, ethics, and philosophies draw the line as freely and far back as to the creation of the known universe. Obviously they lacked foundation and perspective as they let their "line" go basically unchecked, without discretion. It was ridiculous, AND THEY KNEW IT. So I called them on it. For those who chose that side and decided to partake in the fiasco, BUT who are still respected by MY standards (who is pretty much everyone here), they have my apologies if I stepped on any toes when I called such people WIMPS. Of course it was never meant to be directed at anyone who is NOT a wimp. Only for the WIMPS. lol. [:)] Oh goodness. But, you know they're out there. Even if they haven't posted or read, or discovered this forum/VSL yet. It was a outlash at a specific group of people "out there", not necessarily anyone HERE. If anyone is still offended about that comment, and still feels it is directed towards them specifically than I guess it is, unless you want to ask me directly.

continued...

@Another User said:

Evan Evans: "It is entirely what is disgusting. I have nothing wrong with the existence of such samples. It's the people who use them, the music that it's used in, and what it does to the value of the art, that DISGUSTS me. Although nice guys finish last, and I could "write" many composers under the table, it is still quite DISGUSTING to see people to use crutches, sellout, and succeed doing SO LITTLE. Anyone who is on the other end of this argument is someone perhaps to blame."Don't you find the writing under the table comment arrogant, pompous, and absurd...who asked about you, we were talking about samples?

I hear you. I really do. But without human beings, life is soulless. To infuse human and social perspective into philosophy, craft, art, and technique is 100% relevant. Without the human element only robotic precision would be the highest form of art, and that would be sad. Indeed I wrote an essay on my website about how if the evolution of Humans is to become robots, and for all life to cease and become electrical and robotic in every way shape and form, that the robots will have no reason to go on, as they have nothing to conquer as they are 100% efficient. Their CPUs will simply stop as a result of having no purpose.

So, my perspective is ... that which I said above (that you quoted me on). OK? You got a problem with viewpoints? Am I stepping on YOUR toes somehow by posing my own viewpoints? They ARE only words.

continued...

@Another User said:

and if you really think its about the time crunch short-cut, than you're no better for using samples...you should learn to play all the instruments and record them all yourself...its the same ethical issue that you argue.

Eh, there we go again drawing lines using ridiculous comparisons with free floating ethical values. Have some discretion dude. If you actually start drawing some lines, you will arrive at your own viewpoint. Then at that point you can tell me and everyone else it. For now, I have mine, and the lines are clear.

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

...I've described him more than once as intelligent, talented and highly skilled.

And somehow some mistaken insults have made you feel like you got a knife stabbed in your back. Again I apologize for somehow making you feel insulted. Not my intention. I think you're cool. Love your posts, and anything you've ever said to me.

continued...

@Another User said:

My Mother's big lesson was "Words have power. Think before you use them. Think how YOU would feel if someone used those words on you."

Sweet.

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

Are you ill? Good Lord, for a moment there, I thought there was something wrong with you. Then I noticed your'e from Australia.

And thanks for the game of Rugby mate. Good on ya!

[:P]

Ahhh yeeessss - the old English/ Australian thing. [H]
Ive heard about this syndrome and I have to tell you - its a one way street, nobody down here pays any attention to you guys at all! [:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

Rugby?? Thats a town in sunny old, isnt it?

cheers


Dave C

http://www.knit-school.co.kr/p-main/images/summer-bag-3.jpg

try hitting each other with these. [:D]

@zigzag said:

[:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

Zig,

Your'e so right about that. I said that they had no chance on this forum before you showed. I rang them up and said ' What the hell are you doing trying to go to Mars? We don't do space! Leave it to the 'brash Americans'. Send the bloody thing somewhere closer, like Australia. See if there's any life there'.

They didn't listen, of course.

Glad to see your'e not sulking over the Rugby [:D]

James McWilliams - handbags are for fairies! Am I going to find you at the bottom of my garden? This is an English/Australian thing, where Australians like to stereotypye Americans with words like 'brash'. Where are you from, son?

[6]

@zigzag said:

[:D] Still, bad luck about Mars and all that, maybe try something a bit closer next time.

James McWilliams - handbags are for fairies! Am I going to find you at the bottom of my garden? This is an English/Australian thing, where Australians like to stereotypye Americans with words like 'brash'. Where are you from, son?

[6]

Same place as you me ol' mucker. [:D] You've obviously never seen two old ladies going at each other with handbags! :0

[quote=James McWilliams]Same place as you me ol' mucker. [[:D]] :0/quote]

Oh yeah! Whereabouts?

[[:D]]

@PaulR said:

[quote=James McWilliams]Same place as you me ol' mucker. [[:D]] :0/quote]

Oh yeah! Whereabouts?

[[:D]]

Originally from Bournemouth, but I've moved to Warwickshire now...

Nope! Never heard if it.

Bye bye.

[6]

@PaulR said:

Nope! Never heard if it.

Bye bye.

[6]

Just be content that I'm not really at the bottom of your garden with a handbag. [;)]

To be honest, I have a friend whom Evan reminds me of.... This guy is a visual artist, and he takes any oportunity he can to cut people down whose methods, habits, etc., don't seem appropriate to him. However, he does so in a manner which makes it very clear that the reason he's cutting them down is because he has a specific methodology in his own work. The big difference is that this individual also incorporates this process of 'attack' into his work, thus conveying his position through the work itself, and establishing a particular social commentary. Though not so cleanly considered, I think Evan thinks in a similar way. That's really what I was trying to point out with my little ethic A/B thing -- that, being an ethic, it is really something that must be _lived_ and experienced on a day-to-day basis. Evan lives daily with this struggle, musically, and has found that the only way to 'survive' has been to build an iron-clad process. That process requires an equally iron-clad ethic, in order to make it possible to sustain. I understand that... However, I _will_ say that doing an MFA (a collaborative degree, working with artists from different media) thumped the exclusivity out of me, since I realized that my ethic was really only of such tremendous importance to _me_, and that, should it happen to apply to anyone else, it would cease to be the same ethic, since it would be 'lived' by another individual, with another personal history, etc.

I will admit that some of his comments are a little ridiculous. However, I also understand what he's saying when he claims that only those who place themselves in opposition to him will feel offended. He's firmly planted in his ethic and speaks to others as though they are planted in theirs. If they're not, then they become offended. So, the point of the ethic A/B thing was to consider which side you approach composition from. (Naturally, it could be a bit of both.) Then it's possible to continue this discussion, in a valuable way, without being upset -- you've discovered your relationship to the problem, and you can discuss it from that standpoint. There really is no need to become personally offended, and I genuinely believe that's not Evan's intention. After all, an ethic B composer has every right to find Evan's steadfast adherence to ethic A totally naive. We live in a time when most of the new works we hear are revealed to us through recordings, and in the world of film music, many of those works may _never_ have been played by 'live' musicians, from a score. Furthermore, many people who work in electronic music think the virtual duplication of the symphonic orchestra is a complete waste of time, talent, and processor cycles! And in an entirely electronic medium, they have every right to support that opinion. We here, who find the virtual orchestra beautiful, fascinating, useful, and culturally valuable are really in the minority... I think. In that context, the ethic B composer is in a much better position to make something truly interesting and culturally significant, since they have better understood the medium in which we are all are working and the parameters specific to that medium. In that vein, Mathis' ideas about the Nancarrow-like work are more 'lucid' than any notion of passing off midi as Mahler.
That said, I still love the idea of commanding a virtual orchestra -- a _real_ virtual orchestra, that could fool even Boulez! [;)] -- I find it fascinating, and I think it could potentially give rise to a peculiar sort of renaissance in both virtual and live music. (Trumpet fanfare, sun bursting through the clouds, and so on...)

Peace, All... Evan is just inflamatory. Stand back and take a look at how many heart-felt and interesting viewpoints have come out in reaction to his opinions.

James.

It's not that those who place themselves "opposition" to him will feel offended. Rather, it's those who feel uncertain about their own methods. Those who sit in the opposite (or an opposing) camp can argue their points intelligently, and back them up with experience. Sorry that wasn't too clear. Writing is a difficult business... it's so inflexible once on the page (or "v-page").

James.

A quick clarification...

I am never in opposition to anyone else's methods. And I'm certainly confident enough in my own methods not to be offended if someone questions them. They've worked pretty well for me over almost 25 years of composing for hire. (I'm also not too old to learn new methods when I think they'll help make my music better.) I've simply tried to point out one fact: Saying (in so many words), "If you use any other method than mine your music can never be meaningful." is rude, insulting and shows a lack of respect for one's peers.

Nor have I ever implied that anyone is naive for employing their particular methods. What's naive is to imply to a group of peers that if you DON'T use a certain method you're a sellout, and you bascially suck...then be surprised that people are upset by this.

You know, I could really care less, and I'm a little embarrased that I let myself get embroiled in some of the silliness. But rudeness is my particular hot button. I think anonymity and self-absorption are eroding our civility, and I find myself compelled to speak up. I'm one of those weird people that responds to public rudeness by smiling and saying, (kind of like I did in my first post to Evan) "You seem like a nice person, so I know you didn't mean for that to sound rude, did you?" But I realize my efforts fell on deaf ears. Ah well, nobody made me the civility cop. But, most people, when confronted politely with their boorish behavior, usually apologize for - or at least acknowledge- the misunderstanding. They don't write volumes trying to justify it.

I'm probably old enough be Evan's dad. He has a LOT of stuff on the ball, and could probably BE the guiding light he seems so desperately to WANT to be...if only he didn't posess (in the words of an earlier post) - the unique ability to piss people off. Who knows, maybe I felt compelled to try and teach him the important lesson my mother taught me. Tact. But, I'm certainly NOT his dad...hell, I don't even know him. Geez, what WAS I thinking, anyway?

Anyway, on a deadline. Back to work.

Fred Story