Thats right Evan, he did win one early on and did get nominated for others. But he never got nominated for any Hitchcock scores (9). His favourite filmscore was The Ghost and Mrs Muir.

I wish he could have scored Carrie. That would have been fascinating to see his treatment of what turned out to be a very good film within that particular genre.

So my ranting was in error on Herrmann's Oscar. Somehow I never once heard that mentioned. Maybe because his later scores which did not get Oscars so overshadowed this earlier one. What was it for?

I did hear the It's Alive score when that film came out. The music of course is great, much better than the film. Though the film is not all bad. It is a low budget but fairly imaginative grotesquerie by Larry Cohen. You have to like rude, low budget horror films to like it though. (The birth of that baby did NOT go smoothly.) But I read some quotes by Herrmann in which he was not happy to be working on it.

The worst film he scored that I've seen, though it was a good production by a prominent director (de Palma) is "Obsession." It is like "Vertigo" with every mistake possible, instead of none as in the original.

But it is the single most remarkable example that I know of film music transcending the film. Every note of this score is pure inspiration and beauty of the most haunting and intense kind, not heard since "Vertigo."

Since Evan steadfastly refuses to answer me, I will posit an answer myself to writing for bad films - the composer must somehow find a source of inspiration that comes from somewhere else, or from only tiny parts of the film he is scoring combined with something else. As here, in "Obsession." Herrmann was obviously harking back somewhat to "Vertigo" though he was clearly affected by at least the locations in Italy and the American South which played a prominent part in "Obsession." That, combined with his superlative technical skill, allowed him to create music that was as good as it could be for the film but also, in his interior artistic isolation, to create a beautiful piece of music in itself.

I keep mentioning "Mrs Muir" as my favorite BH score and find out it's also Raksin's and the composer's favorite.

I also started a thread on the great Eric Korngold.

And - recognized the Fab Four as superior to all these bozos put together.

Such taste.

I AM THE MOST POWERFUL _SOMETHING OR OTHER_ ON THE VSL FORUM!

...couldn't resist

D Patrick Connor

William: yes I see. The boy goes absolutely mad at the mention of that other BH

@William said:

So my ranting was in error on Herrmann's Oscar. Somehow I never once heard that mentioned. Maybe because his later scores which did not get Oscars so overshadowed this earlier one. What was it for?

All That Money Can Buy or sometimes known as The Devil and Daniel Webster. About 1941/42 I think.

Benson & Hedges, I think I need one.

Trivia: In which film did Herrmann appear in conducting at the Albert Hall?

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day)

I think the original title is:
"The man who knew too much"

best
Herb

I believe that Herb had a time zone advantage in answering that question.

What we need now is a "Name That Tune" quiz.

Paul, your information almost supports my ranting even with the factual error. I have heard Devil and Daniel Webster. It is one of the most minor efforts of Herrmann, though of course that means it is better than 99% of all other composers. But it is strange that is the one to win, not Psycho, not Vertigo, not Ghost and Mrs. Muir, etc.

@William said:

Since Evan steadfastly refuses to answer me,

Huh? Please ask me again. Did I miss something? I am not refusing to answer anything?

Evan Evans

@herb said:

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day)
I think the original title is:
"The man who knew too much"
best
Herb

Correct. How about, which film had Lalo Schifrin conducting???

Evan Evans

@herb said:

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day) Herb

Herb! You the man!

Evan, thats OT, but I would imagine (wild guess here) The Competition. Because I think I may be wrong, I'm going to retort with:-

What was Hitchcock most frightened of in real life? If you know that, I will be seriously impressed.

But it is strange that is the one to win, not Psycho, not Vertigo, not Ghost and Mrs. Muir, etc.

Has to be down to his famous (or infamous) attitude. Can't think of anything else Bill. Early days, he probably didn't make waves and copped an Oscar. Now he's turned into a behavioural nighmare, lets teach him a lesson. That kind of thing.

Hitchcock was most frightened of being locked up in a cell.

You are probably right Paul about Herrmann's attitude affecting opinions later on. By all accounts he was a real s.o.b.

Oh, that reminds me... Evan:
(sorry - I couldn't resist [[;)]] ) I exaggerated with "steadfastly refusing" - I just meant hearing no reaction from you to my long diatribe on having to score lousy films which Mathis quoted. You have to deal with this, or are all your film jobs as good as Herrmann's first?

William,

OH. Ok. Well writing great music makes up for it. And like in Shawshank Redemption, "I can't take a piss without say-so." - I can't write music without a film.

The answer to the Lalo Schifrin question is:

RED DRAGON

He was conducting the orchestra at the beginning that Lecter was attending. Brett Ratner directed the film, and Schifrin is Ratner's favorite composer and indeed worked on his prior films, but for political reasons he was not able to have Schifrin score Dragon. However, while still slated as composer, he was shot conducting in that opening scene.

Evan Evans

@William said:

Hitchcock was most frightened of being locked up in a cell.

Thats almost right, but no cigar just yet Bill. Has to be excact, beacause Evans' pissed me off with going OT. [:)]

lol.

Maybe being in a straight jacket?

I remember hearing about this fear of his once, but I don't know what it is.

And BTW PaulR, Hitchcock fears are technically OT too! [:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

And BTW PaulR, Hitchcock fears are technically OT too! [:)]Evan Evans

Not quite the same Evan. There is a link between Hitchcock and Herrmann, Not even a tenuous one with Lalo Schifrin, although I accept him as a marvellous writer. Plus, I can't get my internet connection to work properly (3 hours on a technical support line, [:'(] technical- thats a joke), so I have to take it out on someone.

I don't think I'm ready to give the answer yet.

Paul, more exactly, he was terrified of police, because his father had them lock him up in a cell for five minutes as a child, with the admonition "this is what we do to bad boys."

@evanevans said:

- I can't write music without a film.

Evan, what does that mean? Does it mean you´re not able to write music without a film? Don´t you compose concert music? (Even if it might not gonna be performed?)

Just wanting to clarify an obvious question. Even if you´d confirm these questions it wouldn´t mean a judgement for me.

Oh Mathis, I am not worried about answering that question or ANY question. It was a generality, but mainly it means that I get a lot of "cues" from the film when I write music. For concert music it is usually either visual in nature or at least conceptual so that I have a driving force behind my music. So that every note has a meaning derived from "the source". I believe this is the purest way of writing music, so that no note becomes irrelevant.

Evan Evans

@William said:

Paul, more exactly, he was terrified of police, because his father had them lock him up in a cell for five minutes as a child, with the admonition "this is what we do to bad boys."

Very close. I remember an interview on TV with Hitchcock years ago, and this just stuck in my mind for some reason.

He was petrified of being arrested and locked-up, specifically for a crime he did NOT commit. Strange old fellow from Leyton, London. Dad was a greengrocer.

He had some wonderful quotes and was a very funny, sardonic man. I liked his quote regarding Tallulah Bankhead when making the film Lifeboat.

Famous composer quote from LIFEBOAT. I'll paraphrase.

The director relieved the composer saying that the audience wouldn't believe in any music because they'd be wondering, "How did the orchestra get there?", to which the composer retorted, "Well how did the cameras get there?"

Evan Evans

Here is another facet of Bernard Herrmann - his negative, obnoxious attitude, an example of how the greatest film composer caused himself complete misery:

"Already high-strung, he became more and more abrasive - a development which struck at the heart of his most intimate champion, his wife Lucille Anderson. After 15 years of marriage Anderson found it an unendurable irony that she should awake to the halcyon sunlit morning that made California famous - only to see it shattered as she poured the coffee and Herrmann began his harangue about everything that was wrong with musicians and filmmakers... as his self-absorption deepened and darknened with the decline of his career, he lashed out at Anderson without pause."
-Christopher Husted, liner notes for "Marnie" Varese Sarabande recording

When she finally left him all he could say was "Who's gonna take care of me?" This combined with what he did to the musicians he worked with - berating them constantly to the point of making every orchestra he previously conducted refuse to work with him because they literally hated him, betraying friends, savagely criticizing his colleagues many of whom were his former admirers - it is pathetic. And it has nothing whatever to do with the beauty of his music, which came from somewhere else - from doing something positive, from NOT being negative. In fact it harmed him greatly in his later career, when he actually could not get a job for long periods of time. When you are arrogant, negative and obnoxious sooner or later it will catch up with you.