Oscars? You should never have mentioned Oscars...

All I can say about the Oscars is this - for the first time in the history of cinema the imbeciles who vote for them were unable to avoid doing it right. Why? Because giving any other director than Peter Jackson and picture besides Lord of the Rings the awards would have been ridiculous. One has the sensation that they wanted so badly to give the awards to something like "Beautiful Mind" as they did before - a film that could have been a play, or a book, or anything other than a movie because it was nothing but dialogue. But they just couldn't avoid giving the awards to a masterpiece of directing, cinematography, acting, editing, sound effects, animation, music, costuming, production design, sculpting, painting, model-making, etc., etc., etc. And they wanted to give it to somebody else- anybody else! - so bad! After all, it is FANTASY. We don't give awards to... FANTASY. Oh well, I guess we have to. But only this one time! It won't happen again...

This is not the usual for the Oscars - for example, does everyone reading this know that "French Connection" is a better film than Kubrick's "2001" ? Or that "Out of Africa" is better than Kurosawa's "Ran?" You didn't realize that, did you? Oh, well you should pay more attention to the Oscars! Or that Alfred Hitchcock never won an Oscar until the belated "Life Achievement" or whatever the hell they call it when they are trying to cover up for their tastelessness and stupidity? Or that Orson Welles was essentially hounded out of Hollywood (along with Charlie Chaplin)? Or that Buster Keaton was turned into an alcoholic by MGM? or that ...

Never mind. The list goes on. The art of cinema means nothing in Hollywood. The commerce of cinema means everything.

And Bernard Herrmann? Are you kidding? Recognize genius when it first comes into being? (Insert Dwight Frye as Renfield laugh here.) That's very amusing...

[quote=William]Oscars? You should never have mentioned Oscars quote]

Good points. But there must have been a reason other than the fact that Herrmann didn't necessarily get on with people, for example.

I would like to cross-reference the Hitchcock/Herrmann scores with the actual scores that won the awards in the respective years and we can make a judgement call (just for fun).

I would agree that the system lumps film and scores all into the same melting pot. It would be intellectually more interesting to seperate the different genres. i.e. French Connection, 2001, Throne of Blood etc.
But that wouldn't be quite so entertaining on Oscar night.

Incidentally, lads. Does the word Oscar have the same effect on you as Benny Hill does on most of the UK? [:D]

Lord Of The Rings: Return Of The King deserved every award it got. It has raised the bar in cinema.

Sometimes the right people get the oscar. After about 9 years of chaos in the Score, Score/Musical, Score/Comedy, Score/Animated, etc. caategory, when John Corigliano won for the RED VIOLIN, I was finally at peace again.

And this year was also a beautiful year for Oscar. Everyone who deserved to get nominated did, and outside of some close calls, the awards were given to those who deserved it.

On the flip side, there's HANS ZIMMER for THE LION KING, and all the awards for TITANIC. Pleeeeease.

And finally, for clarity on Herrmann he was nominated at least 3 times as far as I recall, and won at least one oscar at teh beginning of his career. Although he gave the oscar to his daughter to play with as a toy, and wrote a letter to teh academy saying he refused to accept it for the Academy's lack of recognition of film music.

And as far as Taxi Driver, there were two films IT'S ALIVE and IT'S ALIVE 2, that Herrmann was slated for. I believe he did the first one before Taxi Driver but it wasn't released until after his death. And the sequel was comprised of edited cues from the first one. LUCKY DIRECTOR!

Evan Evans

Thats right Evan, he did win one early on and did get nominated for others. But he never got nominated for any Hitchcock scores (9). His favourite filmscore was The Ghost and Mrs Muir.

I wish he could have scored Carrie. That would have been fascinating to see his treatment of what turned out to be a very good film within that particular genre.

So my ranting was in error on Herrmann's Oscar. Somehow I never once heard that mentioned. Maybe because his later scores which did not get Oscars so overshadowed this earlier one. What was it for?

I did hear the It's Alive score when that film came out. The music of course is great, much better than the film. Though the film is not all bad. It is a low budget but fairly imaginative grotesquerie by Larry Cohen. You have to like rude, low budget horror films to like it though. (The birth of that baby did NOT go smoothly.) But I read some quotes by Herrmann in which he was not happy to be working on it.

The worst film he scored that I've seen, though it was a good production by a prominent director (de Palma) is "Obsession." It is like "Vertigo" with every mistake possible, instead of none as in the original.

But it is the single most remarkable example that I know of film music transcending the film. Every note of this score is pure inspiration and beauty of the most haunting and intense kind, not heard since "Vertigo."

Since Evan steadfastly refuses to answer me, I will posit an answer myself to writing for bad films - the composer must somehow find a source of inspiration that comes from somewhere else, or from only tiny parts of the film he is scoring combined with something else. As here, in "Obsession." Herrmann was obviously harking back somewhat to "Vertigo" though he was clearly affected by at least the locations in Italy and the American South which played a prominent part in "Obsession." That, combined with his superlative technical skill, allowed him to create music that was as good as it could be for the film but also, in his interior artistic isolation, to create a beautiful piece of music in itself.

I keep mentioning "Mrs Muir" as my favorite BH score and find out it's also Raksin's and the composer's favorite.

I also started a thread on the great Eric Korngold.

And - recognized the Fab Four as superior to all these bozos put together.

Such taste.

I AM THE MOST POWERFUL _SOMETHING OR OTHER_ ON THE VSL FORUM!

...couldn't resist

D Patrick Connor

William: yes I see. The boy goes absolutely mad at the mention of that other BH

@William said:

So my ranting was in error on Herrmann's Oscar. Somehow I never once heard that mentioned. Maybe because his later scores which did not get Oscars so overshadowed this earlier one. What was it for?

All That Money Can Buy or sometimes known as The Devil and Daniel Webster. About 1941/42 I think.

Benson & Hedges, I think I need one.

Trivia: In which film did Herrmann appear in conducting at the Albert Hall?

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day)

I think the original title is:
"The man who knew too much"

best
Herb

I believe that Herb had a time zone advantage in answering that question.

What we need now is a "Name That Tune" quiz.

Paul, your information almost supports my ranting even with the factual error. I have heard Devil and Daniel Webster. It is one of the most minor efforts of Herrmann, though of course that means it is better than 99% of all other composers. But it is strange that is the one to win, not Psycho, not Vertigo, not Ghost and Mrs. Muir, etc.

@William said:

Since Evan steadfastly refuses to answer me,

Huh? Please ask me again. Did I miss something? I am not refusing to answer anything?

Evan Evans

@herb said:

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day)
I think the original title is:
"The man who knew too much"
best
Herb

Correct. How about, which film had Lalo Schifrin conducting???

Evan Evans

@herb said:

Der Mann der zuviel wusste (Remake)
(Jimmy Stewart, Doris Day) Herb

Herb! You the man!

Evan, thats OT, but I would imagine (wild guess here) The Competition. Because I think I may be wrong, I'm going to retort with:-

What was Hitchcock most frightened of in real life? If you know that, I will be seriously impressed.

But it is strange that is the one to win, not Psycho, not Vertigo, not Ghost and Mrs. Muir, etc.

Has to be down to his famous (or infamous) attitude. Can't think of anything else Bill. Early days, he probably didn't make waves and copped an Oscar. Now he's turned into a behavioural nighmare, lets teach him a lesson. That kind of thing.

Hitchcock was most frightened of being locked up in a cell.

You are probably right Paul about Herrmann's attitude affecting opinions later on. By all accounts he was a real s.o.b.

Oh, that reminds me... Evan:
(sorry - I couldn't resist [[;)]] ) I exaggerated with "steadfastly refusing" - I just meant hearing no reaction from you to my long diatribe on having to score lousy films which Mathis quoted. You have to deal with this, or are all your film jobs as good as Herrmann's first?

William,

OH. Ok. Well writing great music makes up for it. And like in Shawshank Redemption, "I can't take a piss without say-so." - I can't write music without a film.

The answer to the Lalo Schifrin question is:

RED DRAGON

He was conducting the orchestra at the beginning that Lecter was attending. Brett Ratner directed the film, and Schifrin is Ratner's favorite composer and indeed worked on his prior films, but for political reasons he was not able to have Schifrin score Dragon. However, while still slated as composer, he was shot conducting in that opening scene.

Evan Evans

@William said:

Hitchcock was most frightened of being locked up in a cell.

Thats almost right, but no cigar just yet Bill. Has to be excact, beacause Evans' pissed me off with going OT. [:)]

lol.

Maybe being in a straight jacket?

I remember hearing about this fear of his once, but I don't know what it is.

And BTW PaulR, Hitchcock fears are technically OT too! [:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

And BTW PaulR, Hitchcock fears are technically OT too! [:)]Evan Evans

Not quite the same Evan. There is a link between Hitchcock and Herrmann, Not even a tenuous one with Lalo Schifrin, although I accept him as a marvellous writer. Plus, I can't get my internet connection to work properly (3 hours on a technical support line, [:'(] technical- thats a joke), so I have to take it out on someone.

I don't think I'm ready to give the answer yet.

Paul, more exactly, he was terrified of police, because his father had them lock him up in a cell for five minutes as a child, with the admonition "this is what we do to bad boys."

@evanevans said:

- I can't write music without a film.

Evan, what does that mean? Does it mean you´re not able to write music without a film? Don´t you compose concert music? (Even if it might not gonna be performed?)

Just wanting to clarify an obvious question. Even if you´d confirm these questions it wouldn´t mean a judgement for me.

Oh Mathis, I am not worried about answering that question or ANY question. It was a generality, but mainly it means that I get a lot of "cues" from the film when I write music. For concert music it is usually either visual in nature or at least conceptual so that I have a driving force behind my music. So that every note has a meaning derived from "the source". I believe this is the purest way of writing music, so that no note becomes irrelevant.

Evan Evans