Updated, more complete PDF of FEAR OF CLOWNS - Score Concept:
FEAR OF CLOWNS - Score Concept

Evan Evans

One thing I noticed on Evan's score here and the Hunting Humans was the care taken to get a lot of smaller cresc/dim changes, just for phrasing rather than obvious big crescendos, etc. Like at the end of a phrase, or the beginning, that doesn't use a notated crescendo but the line benefits immensely from those small dynamic changes. You almost never hear that with sampler performances. That kind of detail creates more expression as well as realism than maybe anything else (aside from basic good samples).

@William said:

One thing I noticed on Evan's score here and the Hunting Humans was the care taken to get a lot of smaller cresc/dim changes, just for phrasing rather than obvious big crescendos, etc.

Thats exactly what I meant by the 'sound' Bill. Completely agree.

Evan, your'e going to have a really hard job trying to find that Calliope sample. I had another cursory look yesterday in Bristol, but no luck. You may have to do a lot of sound editing, or use another type of 'carousel' type sample. However, without wanting to influence your decisions or work in any way, that might be a bit cliche. Anyway, it is very interesting watching this unfold, but spend less time in The Crossroads diner and spend more time getting it done. [:)]

Later

Paul

Paul,

Yeah, I am gonna fly down to LA and record a real one.

Mostly I have been trying to get this Main Titles done so that I have my template setup. So last night for instance I spent 1 hour building a timpani from VSL timp hits.

Today I finished the orchestration for bars 1 through 22. That might not sound like progress because I haven't got past bar 22, but actually it's a lot of work establishing the orchestrational colors. And anyway, I have laid down some future bars that will connect with the piece "in due time". I hope to have this Main Title done in 3 days.

So here's the latest version, the final version of 1M1 Main Titles:
"Fear of Clowns" 1M1 Main Titles (bars 1-22)

You'll note the addition of two piatti players. That's the last of any further colors i needed. I really needed an instrument that would go crunch and meld with frenzied picc and violins. Piatti is what I chose.

I have further bars worked out I am just not happy with the ideas. So I am gonna rewrite bars 23-39 today and tomorrow.

The Calliope is gonna work brilliantly. It might be cliché, but I don't think it will have ever been used the way i am using it. It's not gonna be Goldsmith's "The Haunting", I can assure you. it will be tastier.

[[;)]]

Evan Evans

Sounds good as usual Evan.

"The Haunting" remake is a piece of shit that should have resulted in criminal charges for all those involved. I spit on anyone who takes a masterpiece of cinema and turns it into garbage for money.

The original film is a brilliant use of suggestion, without any special effects, directed by Robert Wise who based his subtle and nerve-wracking style on his experiences with Val Lewton - who made the greatest purely psychological horror films - in the forties. It also has a fantastic partly atonal score by Humphrey Searle, a great British composer, that puts to shame most of the Dolby enhanced musical nonsense that is so common today.

"The Haunting" i.e. the modern version: is that the one with Owen Wilson and I think Catherine Zeta Jones?

Dave Connor

Evan,

Just heard "Clowns" - terrific. Gorgeous opening chord sequence and wonderfully orchestrated. Very funky evil groove as well that overlays Alex North winds onto tritone changes and Prokofiev piano licks. Loved the slides in the brass and detail of the production. Very, very, good and I don't mean to suggest pastiche, I just hear your influences. It's your own music and quite good and extremely well executed.

Your use of 12 Fr Hrns (half muted): Do you sound them together at times? Or is that just for passing between them quickly? What muted horns are those btw? Dan Dean? SAM?


Dave Connor

@Another User said:

Your use of 12 Fr Hrns (half muted): Do you sound them together at times? Or is that just for passing between them quickly? What muted horns are those btw? Dan Dean? SAM?
Dave Connor

They are the Dan Dean. As you may or may not have noticed/gathered from my previous posts, I am bit of a purist with my own standards. One of them is to treat the virtual orchestra with exactly the same respect you'd treat a real orchestra. So ... depending on the passage, I would use the Horns back and forth mostly so i can have MORE horns without breaks, but also can do any of the following combinations:

Solo Horn
6 Horns (open OR muted)
12 Horns (open OR muted)
6 Horns Open THEN other 6 Horns Open
6 Horns Muted THEN other 6 Horns Muted
6 Horns Muted AND other 6 Horns Open

You can do some fast open Muted Question Answer motivic writing and they don't get tired at all. The embouchure would get destroyed if open and muted was going back and forth between same Horn. Also, the extra time in between while the other guys are playing lets blood flow back into the lips and allows them to play fortissimo longer, if not almost for endless periods (if orchestrated well).

I come from a classical film score background so it all is from the perspective of real organic performance. I adjust notes to create certain grooves. i do not quantize a single note. i play every passage separately. I adjust the notes in microns to achieve the groove I am looking for. my early corporate gigs helped me learn how to create grooves with MIDI.

All in all, I approach the process as a combined Composer, Conductor, Orchestrator, Copyist, Recording Engineer, Producer, Mastering Engineer. Interesting thing is that I have spent at least 2 to 4 years professionally as each of those things, so I really do garner those different wisdoms as I create. Herrmann always drew microphone diagrams for his engineers, and of course did reverse tape recording before ANYONE ever did because he understood the mechanics. Having a grasp on the whole entire process can only help your creative landscape and strategy.

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

Paul,

The Calliope is gonna work brilliantly. It might be cliché, but I don't think it will have ever been used the way i am using it. It's not gonna be Goldsmith's "The Haunting", I can assure you. it will be tastier.[[;)]]Evan Evans

Evan,

Sorry. Didn't mean to make it sound like that. My fault. No, what I meant was a 'carousel' type sound might be a bit hacked. A calliope, well, that maybe quite another thing. I've just listened to the updated opening and it sounds excellent. Very good sound. Presumably your'e not going to record this later with a 'real' orchestra. If you can get that sound, whats the point anyway. Looking forward to some more. Very interesting and this forum becomes great fun and very interesting (hopefully without seeming overly voyeuristic) with something like this going on. As an aside, this is a G5 with which sequencer? And also, is this the 'new' Dan Dean horns along with the VSL horns? [H]

Gentlemen,

The Haunting from the early sixties (1963??) with Claire Bloom and Julie Harris is terrific in my view. Very scary, especially when the banging starts on the bedroom door. Still have troube watching that on a cold, dark winter's night, when everyone's gone to bed. Brrrrrrr! Humphrey Searle. What a memory Bill! I think Russ Tamblyn was in that (Tom Thumb and later Twin Peaks). Robert Wise is a top-flight director and before he was directing he was maybe a film editor/cutter(???)

The Haunting remake..... Christ Almighty. Catherine Zeta Jones. Thats right Dave. I won't say anymore, or I'll probably get sued for being on the same planet, or breathing, or ruining her marriage photos or anything. Another remake in 1971/72 is The Legend of Hell House with Roddy McDowell and Gayle Hunnicut. Thats all I can remember about it, except I think it was shite (probably).

Another one from that period that is worth watching and listening out for when it comes to scoring might be The Innocents, with Deborah Kerr's almost neurotic performance, and direction by Jack Clayton. Based on the Henry James story 'The Turn of the Screw'; not to be watched alone if your'e of a nervous disposition. Great film!

The Haunting and The Innocents have no real special effects in them as such, and are both in Black and White photography. Colour film just wouldn't have been the same. Thats often forgotten in the 'modern' era in my view. Same with Psycho. Can you imagine that in colour? Conversely, can you imagine Rear Window in black and white? It may be a cost thing, but nowadays there doesn't seem to be a choice, although now and again, one sees the 'sepia' type effect such as in Sleepy Hollow.

Bottom line is, score writers write scores. Directors make films. One can have a crap film and a good score. Thats life, and the score writer just does his or her job, usually at the end of everything else.

Later

Paul

@PaulR said:

[ And also, is this the 'new' Dan Dean horns along with the VSL horns? [H]

Sorry. Check that. I was thinking of Kirk Hunters Virtuoso Series Orchestral Brass Ensembles. My mistake. [:O]ops:

I agree with Evan on treating the virtual orchestra seriously - in fact, you can treat it MORE SERIOUSLY than a live orchestra, contrary to what many people believe because you simply are not allowed to do to a live orchestra what you can do to a sampled one - go over and over a passage to the point of psychopathology to get it right.

Also with Paul that this is very interesting way of working - it could be inspiring to some composers and generate more enthusiasm in the middle of a project though to others it could be damaging to the process.

however Paul - no, No, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!

"Legend of Hell House" is not bad at all - it is Richard Matheson's excellent riff on The Haunting, and very atmospheric and well done. Also it has an extremely effective analog synth score - very subtle, not at all 70s though the film was made in 75 - with a few orchestral sounds integrated like horns playing open to stopped on one note and a contrabass clarinet.

Though you are very right Paul about "The Haunting" original and "The Innocents" - two of the high water marks for horror films. Also black and white - it has been pointed out that black and white affects the mind differently than color, and is especially suited to psychological horror due to its abstraction of reality, contrasted to color's more ordinary replication of it.

@William said:

however Paul - no, No, NO, NO, NO, NO!!! "Legend of Hell House" is not bad at all .

Is it not bad Bill? If I can't remember something, I usually write it off as shite. I'll check it the next time it's on and come back.

Paul,

Perhaps I shouldn't be so vehement (especially since I don't know what "shite" is) but I really like "Legend of Hell House" partly because of the mysterious Pamela Franklin. Who was in "The Innocents" as the young girl, and in LOHH as a medium.

She has vanished from the face of the earth, and no one can trace her. A beautiful English actress who was a child star and later had important parts in "Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" (not a favorite film of mine - Maggie Evans tends to gag me - but Pamela was great in it) and a number of others. She apparently cannot be traced nowadays - perhaps because her later roles deteriorated to exploitation films, and she had a desire to permanently retire?

Maybe you as a countryman might have some inside dope on her?

Wow - this has gotten a bit far away from Benny, hasn't it? Have to do something about that I suppose.

@William said:

Wow - this has gotten a bit far away from Benny, hasn't it? Have to do something about that I suppose.

Happy to oblige. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Benny Hill is one of the great musical talents of the last century and the model for all British composers since.

Paul must be proud indeed.

Dave Connor

Dave, I couldn't have said it better. I especially admire how Benny would integrate the burlesque numbers into the rest of his awesome and subtle work.

An inspiration to us all, but most especially - I would venture to say - for our British members here on the forum. Some of them have such high esteem for Benny (naturally) that I think it's very appropriate for us Americans to comment in an unbiased way.

@PaulR said:

...this is a G5 with which sequencer?

Actually it's a Dual 1.42Ghz G4 running Logic Pro and a few instances of EXS with my own brand of "super ALL" instruments.

Piccolo Legato
Bass Clarinet ALL
Contra Bassoon ALL
Contra Basson Legato
Horns Legato
Dan Dean Horns Ambient
Dan Dean Horns Muted Ambient
Contra Bass Trombone
Piatti (2 players)
Calliope
Timpani
Post Steinway D Acoustic Piano
Violins Legato
Violins ALL
Violins Pizz ALL
Violas ALL
Cellos Legato
Cellos ALL
Cellos Pizz ALL
Contrabasses ALL

That's it. 20 EXS Instances and 2 Altiverbs. I shortened the Altiverbs to 85% duration for a kind of PHASE4 sound. AltiVerbs are 100% wet. No dry signal (as it was intended).

The rest is in the orchestration and composition!

[[:)]]

OH!!!!

By the way, last night I ordered a Dual 2Ghz G5 / 3.5GB RAM / 160GB+250GBSATA HDs.

Anyone want a Dual G4 1.42Ghz with 2GB RAM and 3 Drives inside (120GB, 250GB, 250GB)? I think $2300 is the right price. Maybe More. That's Maximum RAM and 620GB HD inside. I also have a new 250GB I could put in the 4th slot for a total of 870GB HD on internal ATA busses.

Gonna change systems in the middle of this project! [:(] No problem! [[:)]]

Evan Evans

@William said:

Paul,Perhaps I shouldn't be so vehement (especially since I don't know what "shite" is) but I really like "Legend of Hell House" partly because of the mysterious Pamela Franklin. Who was in "The Innocents" as the young girl, and in LOHH as a medium. .

Evan,

I don't wish you to be contaminated by this post in anyway, so don't read it.

Ok Bill. so now the truth comes out aye? Phrases like 'beautiful English actress' and 'mysterious' may be a bit of a giveaway. Got a thing for our Pamela then? [[[;)]]] Hmmmm! The inside dope? I seeeee! Well, she hasn't vanished as a matter of fact, and she appears from time to time on television dramas over here. Born in Japan, 1950 (her father was import/export) which probably means he had a double O link somewhere [[[;)]]] ) Looks pretty much the same. I remember her as the medium, with the medalion type thing, and also in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie with, I think you mean, Maggie Smith?
When she was just starting out, she was going to be the obligatory female Dr Who assistant, but the part went elsewhere. (Notice how polite I'm being up to this point).

However.....however......

You two young lads, yes, you and Dave, WILL be punished for this. Maybe not now, or even soon. BUT...but.. once is barely acceptable, twice is pushing the boat out. I'm like an elephant. I don't forget, and I will have my vengeance ( Christ, I sound like Gladiator)!

[6]

Sorry, quite right Paul, I meant Maggie Smith.

To return to Herrmann,
many people have criticized his conducting. However, I like it very much, especially his conducting for later lp recordings of his scores.

The reason people have criticized it is because his tempos are slow. (Also, because he was a total a**h*** to the musicians. Just like Gustav Mahler. Why that would ever create any problem I can't imagine.) But slow tempos are a typical problem with composer-conductors not constrained by tempo tracks. The reason is they are trying to soak every last iota of expression out of the music, and that usualy entails slowing down. But if you listen to the lp recordings Herrmann did, they are fantastic. Like the best of them - "Fantasy Film World of Bernard Herrmann." An incredible sound showpiece, and partly because he took his tempos slowly and wrung every last drop of expression and color out of those amazing scores.

Also, his conducting of Arthur Bliss's tremendous score to "Things to Come" which was featured on "Great British Film Scores." The last section, which has a triumphal brass chorus is spectacular, and yet he had the brass lay back a little, around forte not ff as written in the score, and slowed the tempo far below the film's, to create a truly majestic sound. An example of how saving the loudest dynamic to the very last chord can create a much more powerful effect than having everyone blowing as loud as they can constantly - as is done all too often today.

@William said:

...create a much more powerful effect than having everyone blowing as loud as they can constantly - as is done all too often today.

As it is in my main Titles! [[:)]] lol

No, but it's the main Titles. And there will be some soft passages. Also, I can make any note louder than any other note at any time just through orchestration.

I ain't afraid of no "notes"!

Who ya gonna call!? Notesbusters!

[[:)]]

Evan Evans