Yes thats right, but I was thinking more about Hitchcock than Herrmann. The Birds was a fiasco because of what was done to the end of the film. Hitchcock, for whatever reason, never was the same after that film, and Torn Curtain, whilst I agree had its great moment of vintage Hitchcock, was really the end of a great career. Totally miscast Julie Andrews for starters. Did Hitchcock really want that? Lame film that didn't know what it was; a thriller? a comedy thriller? a drama? The film that defines the expression of losing the plot. Herrmann may well have seen this coming, I don't know, but The Birds was really the end of their partnership, although it happened as you say on Torn Curtain. Had Bernard Herrmann's score been used on Torn Curtain, it must have improved the final result, but nevertheless, by then Hitchcock had lost his edge and the ability to 'cut' a film over the 90 minutes or so.
Plus, audiences were changing with the onset of the mid-sixties and Hitchcock tried to follow the times later with Frenzy, which in my view is lurid and actually almost dreadful. Its like a poor Hammer Horror.

This is all theory on my part, of course.

William,

had Hitchcock stood up to the studios and coveted Herrmann's ultimate choice to do an orchestral score, and the studio caved in, do you think the film would have been successful? With Herrmann's score?

Do you think Hitchcock directed and cut in a more "pop" style? If not, then Herrmann's score would be the only thing making it worthy of inclusion withe the others:

Psycho
NXNW
Vertigo
Man Who Knew Too Much
The Wrong Man
Trouble With Harry
etc.

By the way, in my opinion, The Wrong Man is a very unclassical score and the movie is very contemporary for it's time.

Hitchcock deserved failure for abandoning Herrmann. Later he became obsessed with trying to prove he could outdo the magic they created together, ALL BY HIMSELF. His ego tore him apart as his films worsened.

Evan Evans

Actually Evan I don't think anything could have saved Torn Curtain since the script was messed up and Paul Newman in his early career pretty-boy persona was terrible. (He finally evolved out of that insufferable "Am I not beautiful?" role, but it took about thirty years.) The way he took his "method" acting so seriously is pathetic and disgusting, since he was constantly ignoring Hitchcock's and film's needs to show how brilliant he was. Almost as bad - but not quite - as Mel Gibson's recent acting (and directing). Something that happens to pretty boy actors when they decide they are ARTISTS. Especially pathetic when compared to the light, effortless perfection of the quintessential Hitchcock leading man - Cary Grant. The most unpretentious and perhaps best actor ever in Hollywood. But the film would probably have been more powerful in individual scenes if the Herrmann score had been used, since the John Addison one was very insipid.

I am shocked to discover that I actually disagree with Paul!!! There is no fiasco at the end of the Birds! What do you mean? The end is one of the most weirdly ambiguous and surreal conclusions ever done in a mainstream film, and it perfectly mirrors the existential anxiety which the story was ultmately about. Also, I disagree in general with the concept that Hitchcock went down the toilet at the end. He was coping with a massive change in the entire structure of film and the audience's concept of film. "Frenzy" was a great film - shocking and extreme, yes, but essential Hitchcock and evidence that he was just as powerful a director as ever. The film he was going to do next "The Short Night" was going to be just as ambitious and strong as any he'd ever done, but he just was not up to it physically. If old age had not stopped him that diabolical brain of his would probably still be putting everyone else who makes thrillers to shame even today.

@William said:

I am shocked to discover that I actually disagree with Paul!!! There is no fiasco at the end of the Birds! What do you mean?

Hahaaa! No need to be shocked Bill. Remember, this is just a personal view, whereas most film critics agree that The Birds is great throughout. The end of the film just doesn't conform to my compartmental mind, thats all it is really. The rest of the film to that point, when they walk from the house (I haven't seen this film for years btw) is great and from what I recall there is no music as such. The score is basically electronic if I remember right, with Bernard Herrmann being consulted for sound design. Anyway, I had a crush on Suzanne Pleshette when I was a kid (thanks Walt Disney). [:O]ops: and she doesn't last long enough.
How would I prefer the ending to be? No idea, but I will get the DVD soon and come back on this out of interest. Although I wouldn't feel threatened by any ideas I have, if were Hitch!

Frenzy! Thats interesting and I wonder why. Seen from a British perspective (saw it in the cinema when it came out) it seemed to lose the magic of the Anglo/American relationship usually associated with Hitchcock and even down to the quality of the actual film. It almost looks like video to me. I accept that an American audience wouldn't worry that there are no traces of America in this film, but to me it's like a 1970 version of Jack the Ripper (is that what it's meant to be? btw). Alright Guv, ow's it goin! Allo my luv, fancy a drink! etc etc. I found it lurid, rather than menacing with cockney stereotypes all over the place. BUT, most people agree, it's a good film. Just my taste on this one. If I told you my favourite Hitchcock film Bill (not necessarily the technical best) I reckon you'd be surprised. Your'e right about the old age thing obviously. Thats the way it goes even to the best of them in the end, unfortunately. It's difficult to make allowances like that for the likes of Hitchcock, as one never regards them as having normal human conditions apply.
With regard to his diabolical brain, I actually watched the original trailer to Psycho the other night. Thats just brilliant, it really is. Diabolical brain alright! [:)]

Paul

@William said:

Almost as bad - but not quite - as Mel Gibson's recent acting (and directing).

Couldn't agree more on that! I know it's off-topic, but this surely has to be one of the most overrated screen actors around.

All the Mad Max films -- Nonsense

Brave Heart -- Rubbish

Another film about the American Civil War and I can't be bothered to look up it's name-- Rubbish

A remake of a Lee Marvin/Angie Dickinson film by John Boreman (I think?) which was brilliant -- Rubbish

Some film about a kid getting kidnapped -- Tripe

All the good cop/bad cop films-- Rubbish

Phony American accent-- Rubbish

This new phantasmorgorical horror film. Haven't seen it yet, but-- Rubbish

Christ Almighty, these films make some money! The intellectual equivalents of a Chinese takeaway!

Glad you bought this up Bill! That feels good!

Anyone with any thoughts?

[6]

Paul,

Yes, this overrated Aussie is not terribly interesting, quite. By the by, guv, did you know his wife's going to Hell? Yes, the bird's taking the plunge or so the old boy claims. Not very decent of whomever's responsible, what?

Interesting how the "Englishness" of Frenzy is what turns you against it - I can understand that completely, and yet it was one of the more attractive aspects of the film to me. I suppose this is something similar to Westerns: maybe they have a certain exoticism (???!!) to people in England or Europe but here, where I can look out my window and see sagebrush-covered hills, they are just too ordinary most of the time.

Also - that Marvin/Dickinson film: one of the most original film noir ever made - "Point Blank." Lee Marvin is apparently a vengeful ghost in the fascinating metaphysical plot. Both Clint Eastwood and Mel the Auteur stole the concept from it.

@William said:

Paul,
Yes, this overrated Aussie is not terribly interesting, quite. By the by, guv, did you know his wife's going to Hell?

Well, I'm very sorry to hear that.

I was just starting college life in London actually, when Frenzy was being made. A very different London to now. More like the London you may have seen in Blow Up, made about 4 years before.

Yes indeed, it could be the same as Westerns. Quid pro quo. Although, westerns are usually popular the world over.

Point Blank. Thats the one. Lee Marvin's footsteps. Click, click, click, click, like a metronome is what I always think of with that film.

Paul, you must have been extremely cool [H] if you lived in that London.

@William said:

Paul, you must have been extremely cool [H] if you lived in that London.

Nah! It was nice on a sunny day to walk from our appartment in Kangaroo Valley up to Kensington and up and over the steps of the Albert Hall to college though Bill. Bernard Herrmann wouldn't recognize London nowadays. You could buy a row houses in Fulham for £100k then and they'd throw one in for free probably. Los Angeles is probably much cooler, and New York. And as for Reno, well, I would imagine it's so cool, it's like living in a Smeg fridge. [:D]

Reno used to be really cool but people discovered it and now they're all moving here and it is being overrun. I think I'll move to Virginia City (just a few miles up the road) and become a colorful drunk. They have lots of those there.

But back on the original subject - one thing that struck me in this discussion of later Hitchcock was the quality or lack thereof of later scores without Herrmann - "Torn Curtain" is fluff without Herrmann. "Topaz" ? I have no concept of the music in it. Forgettable at best.

HOWEVER -
"Frenzy" - a very good score that had a grand opening title to match the ultimate "Largest to Smallest" visual motif of Hitchcock - the entire Thames down to a necktie on a corpse floating in it. Then a powerful, hard-driving theme to accompany the desperate search for the killer, etc. Some very good music in that.

Also, "Family Plot" which I like and don't care if other people think it's fluff -it's very good fluff - entertaining, clever and humorous with excellent performances - and if Hitchcock had been immortal would probably have been a light interlude between Frenzy and the next powerful film, "The Short Night." This had a score by John Williams, pre-Star Wars. It is interesting to contrast this to Herrmann. In general the music by Williams is insipid and has no strong emotion whatsoever, but it is very skillful and provides what was needed at each point of the film's structure. It does not provide however what Herrmann did - the art of film music. It is just technique. Very effective technique though.

@William said:

I think I'll move to Virginia City (just a few miles up the road) and become a colorful drunk. They have lots of those there.

I thought we already were. You should come and live where I am. Plenty of colourful drunks here. There's a nice place just come on the market 100 yards from the pub. £650 grand and a snip at the price. Thatched roof, plenty of parking, nice views, composers dream. I may become a real estate agent for musicians only actually. More money in it.

Seriously. Henry Mancini I believe was originally going to do the score to Frenzy(released 1972), but he and Hitchcock couldn't agree and that was that. So Ron Goodwin was finally given the score and the part you mentioned is known as the‘London Theme’ which starts the film off. Not the first time Goodwin did this on a film (remember William Walton and The Battle of Britain).He used the City of Prague Philharmonic for this (for whatever reason). Goodwin was always good at that type of thing; for example, the themes and score to Where Eagles Dare. Very good writer. His style was nothing like Herrmann of course, whereas....

I was watching What Lies Beneath the other evening and that to me is a Hitchcock pastiche right down to the camera angles, cutting and score. Entertaining film with Michele Pfeiffer doing most of the work. The score by Alan Silvestri is straight out of the Bernard Herrmann manual, especially at the end where for a moment there I thought we'd gone into Psycho. Presumably this is what the director wanted and how many times have filmscore writers 'borrowed' Herrmann's style over the last 40 years. They can never quite pull it off though, can they?

I've never seen Family Plot.

I have respect for someone who is obsessed with Herrmann and is therefore heavily influenced by him. There are at least two people here like that.

However I have no respect and no tolerance for a damnable hack who is instructed by a fool of a director to imitate Herrmann because the film is a Hitchcock "homage" (translation: ripoff).

@William said:

"homage" (translation: ripoff).

shit. good timing actually. You know there is this idea spinning in my mind about making an "homage" to Santiago Santaolalla (the amores perros composer) and after seeing your post I had to confess that the ideas I had were much to derivative. damnit!
But good timing. I have to come up with something better...

@PaulR said:

Presumably this is what the director wanted and how many times have filmscore writers 'borrowed' Herrmann's style over the last 40 years. They can never quite pull it off though, can they?

PaulR,

I think my current score might surprise you then. Take a listen to just the first 8 bars:

Fear Of Clowns Motivic Snippet Extrapolated into 4 Bar Title Theme

Make sure you listen on some loudspeakers!

Also, a PDF of the thematic motifs is available here:
"Fear of Clowns" Music Score PDF
(NOTE: There is 2 pages of further developed variations written in pencil that I have not yet tacked on the end of this PDF).

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

I think my current score might surprise you then. Take a listen to just the first 8 bars:Make sure you listen on some loudspeakers!Evan Evans

Evan

Thanks for posting this opening. Very sombre. I guess the film is of a dark nature by the sound of the 8 bars. Certainly has your trademark and sounds like you're onto something really good here. I looked at the PDF and it looks almost like a jazz structure (not that I know anything about jazz). Sounds great to me. 8 bars is not enough for me though. I want to hear the opening in it's entirity. It doesn't surprise me at all actually, if you're alluding to Hermmann??? It surely has your own stamp on it and thats what counts isn't it? It's great, no worries. Is it mostly VSL strings and incidentally I see where you want the Calliope and will check tomorrow as promised (providing I can drive a car, hehe). Presumably, the Calliope is for a kind of 'clowns' motif?

But. None of my business, but have you thought of making it all strings a la Psycho? I'm sure you have. What does the director think so far? No problems I would bet, providing he/she has an ear. [:)]

I listened straight out of the computer at high volume through very expensive Sony headphones and then through the Genelecs. No problems!

Later

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for checking it out, and so thoroughly. I appreciate all that you said. Especially about it having my own stamp on it. That is very exciting. I have been trying to find my own voice for over 15 years. I agree though. I really think I haven't heard anything like it before (perhaps only by Herrmann), and it alerted me that maybe it sounds like ... well ... me. What a nice feeling.

I did very much consider doing it all strings and frankly most of the score will be all strings. But the film audience nor the film itself could hold under that pressure. So so far I am doing a dark double brass ensemble, Piccolo, B.Cl, Contrabassoon, Timpani, perhaps a mallet or two (Vibes, Xylo), Calliope, and Strings.

I am also choosing this instrumentation partly in that it is very close in color to this directors last film, HUNTING HUMANS. As Herrmann gave Hitch a certain sound of his own, I wanted to also attempt that with this director.

I wanted to create a seriously foreboding dark, yet bouncy feel. Not light or light hearted by any means. Something that although coming out of the traditional circus oom-pah motifs, actually took it so seriously that it was menacing. And so you have that little riff in the bass woodwinds and strings, which is the intro to the main themes.

I think this score will be close to Herrmann's SISTERS. In fact I think anyone who can enjoy SISTERS ought to find mine a kind of sister score (pun intended). I have not seen Sisters. I have it on DVD. I have the score and listened to it a few times about 5 years ago. But I do remember it.

A draw and tendency that arose on this film was to use a really great synth sound. Not a cheesy one mind you, but something with merit. I recalled great use of synth in films like "Halloween" and "Christine" and "The Thing". But after thinking about the "WHY" of it, which I always do with every note I write (each note is very purposeful), I realized that the reason synth works in those films is that they are dealing with the supernatural. here I am dealing with a demented killer. A story, as grotesque as it is (lobbing off heads with a medieval axe), is no more than a human story of only natural proportions.

After I complete the Main Titles I will post a link to it. it's gonna run the gamut.

Oh, and about the jazzy stuff you saw. No not really. I am triadic composer. However, one of my calling cards is the use of polytonality, polyrhythms, and polymeters. So sometimes stacked triadic chords can come across as jazz rooted, but I never learned Jazz (ironically). I understand it, can notate it, but never crafted it or harnessed it. I am a classical guy through and through. That's why I like Pink Floyd so much!!!!

[:)]

Evan Evans

I liked this also though it was too short. I'd like to hear the whole thing. I think you're doing it right with the clown element - making it somewhat like a circus sound but subtle. It is a good basic contrast also - the brooding and threatening low orchestral sound against the slightly psychotic brightness of the calliope. Also, that's true about the synthesizer sound - it became in some of the later horror films a "sound of psychosis" somewhat like the theremin in earlier films. Especially if contrasted with orchestral sound. That is probably what Herrmann was doing on Sisters.

BTW that is a great score, one of his last and one of the most experimental in orchestration.

[quote=evanevans]
I am also choosing this instrumentation partly in that it is very close in color to this directors last film, HUNTING HUMANS. As Herrmann gave Hitch a certain sound of his own, I wanted to also attempt that with this director.[quote]

Definately a good idea when dealing with an ongoing genre that this director seems to like. Trademark is the name of the game as to me, is not straying all over the place throughout a film, like one hears from time to time, although rarely when one deals with a director that has intellect and feel for the music and goals at the same time.

[quote]I wanted to create a seriously foreboding dark, yet bouncy feel. Not light or light hearted by any means. Something that although coming out of the traditional circus oom-pah motifs, actually took it so seriously that it was menacing. [quote]

Yes. Understood. You may, and I don't mean this in a plagearistic sense, re-listen to the score of an Anthony Hopkins film from years ago, where he plays a ventriliquist and the dummy sort of takes over his character. It's late, and I can't remember the name of the film. Sorry, unlike me, but I'm chewed up after falling off a ladder today.

[quote]A draw and tendency that arose on this film was to use a really great synth sound. Not a cheesy one mind you, but something with merit. I recalled great use of synth in films like "Halloween" and "Christine" and "The Thing".[quote]

In a strange way, they were effective, film and economy wise. [:)] I think John Carpenter used to do his own music sometimes (or his wife did?), like on Escape from New York and Assault on Precinct 19 (??). Always difficult to mix and match orchestra and synth sounds in my view, but if it sounds right to you, give it a shot. If thats the wrong director, again, appologies, but you know what I mean.

[quote] After I complete the Main Titles I will post a link to it. it's gonna run the gamut.[quote]

Yes. Look forward to that!

[quote]I am a classical guy through and through. That's why I like Pink Floyd so much!!!![quote]

I understand the jazz thing, however, it may be time for most of us to move on from the Floyd aye? What do you think? Nice to listen to and all that and seen them live many times, but not sure how they can help filmscore writers these days. Stick to being 'classical' and good stuff once again.


Paul

You may, and I don't mean this in a plagearistic sense, re-listen to the score of an Anthony Hopkins film from years ago, where he plays a ventriliquist and the dummy sort of takes over his character. It's late, and I can't remember the name of the film.

Magic

directed by Richard Attenborough
music by Jerry Goldsmith

Scores by John Carpenter
I think there are some more, the following list includes all titles I've seen. The best scores (the older ones) were done in "association with Alan Howarth". I think Carpenter is the most effective composer/director I know. Especially for the horror genre.

Dark Star
Assault on Precinct 13
Halloween
The Fog
Escape from New York
Christine
Big Trouble in Little China
Prince of Darkness
They Live
In the Mouth of Madness
Escape from LA
John Carpenters Vampires