I really hate to see that. I don't think we should be so insular here as to keep people out unless they are less then civil. I hope it's not are own snobbery that won't tolerate other viewpoints - even highly critical ones.

My own reaction the Nafai's comments was no reaction at all. It's exactly what I would expect from a player in an orchestra. In another thread I distinguished categorically between real orchestra's and samples with sole operator. I think it's fair to compare the two only in the sense that we are trying to get as close as possible to the real thing in all aspects. If someone comes along and says, " Very good but still lacking utterly for countless reasons (count 80 people/80 articulations per 16th note (Tutti)/80 souls/80 sons and daughters on and on.) I can't blame someone who sits in the middle of this to call a spade a spade (to them anyway.) So what!

I'm thrilled with Andy's accomplishment. It's the new benchmark. But if you give me a choice between a good live orchestra and MIDI. I will go with the ensemble at a million to hundred ratio.

But I'll probably do a mock up with VSL first.

Dave Connor

@nafai23 said:

anyway..this snob will leave you guys alone now. I think the tech is great and andy did a great job of displaying that. This just got off topic.
good luck to all and good bye

That poor chap scared me. Anyway, for myself, if I had any part in his forum demise, in my defence, I was very, very drunk at the time. [:O]ops:

@dpcon said:

But if you give me a choice between a good live orchestra and MIDI. I will go with the ensemble at a million to hundred ratio. ... Dave Connor

That's 10,000 to 1 for those less mathematically inclined.

[[;)]]

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

That poor chap scared me. Anyway, for myself, if I had any part in his forum demise, in my defence, I was very, very drunk at the time. [:O]ops:

Okay Pauls come clean now what happenend to the rest?

[:D]

Dave

So being drunk is a defense? All right!

Ah Yes, the "I Was Drunk " defense. Okay I understand. All the regulars here at VSL have a drinking problem.

Now what I want to know is: What was that guy's excuse?

Dave

Sorry if this has been answered already but--

Andy can you give us details of your hardware set up? I'm interested to know how much horsepower you needed to do this sort of mock up. And did it all run real-time or did you need bounces? Thanks and congratulations on an amazing piece of work!

Go to the Northern Sounds Forum:

http://www.northernsounds.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=007538

Hi Gang,

I just heard the Debussy piece, and my congratulations to Andy B.

My comment on the ensuing discussion is this:

The computer and samples are an instrument, like any other. I disagree with the notion that Andy did not display outstanding musicianship. He did indeed, and fine taste as well. His interpretation is delightful.

I have, by the way, also done my share of live playing.

When we come to this "putting musicians out of work" argument, I tune out. More musicians are working now than at any time I have ever seen, and it is a privelege to be working at a time when many people in many professions are not.

At any rate, I felt the need to jump in.

A gifted musician can bang two rocks together and create something of beauty. Whether a person is scratching a bow across an assembly of wood and wire, or stringing together one-note recordings, the proof of the musicianship is in the listening.

This is some fine musicianship--on a difficult instrument. Congratulations.

Ditto, Bruce. Well said.

Fred Story

I agree very much with Bruce about how the sampler - with a specific library - is a musical instrument in itself, of great complexity and difficulty. And this performance of Debussy is a wonderful demonstration of mastery of this new instrument.

@Bruce Richardson said:

When we come to this "putting musicians out of work" argument, I tune out. More musicians are working now than at any time I have ever seen, and it is a privelege to be working at a time when many people in many professions are not.

How come that?

@Bruce Richardson said:

When we come to this "putting musicians out of work" argument, I tune out. More musicians are working now than at any time I have ever seen, and it is a privelege to be working at a time when many people in many professions are not.

How come that?

Why do I tune out, or why do I think it's a privelege to be working?

Well, I tune out because it's tired. In the 1970s people complained that musicians were being put out of work because no one was hiring big-bands in the studios to do commercials any more. Then it was "synthesizers" putting players out of work. Now it's samplers (actually that bitch has been around for years...it's just getting revived online).

I just don't believe it, and I think it's kind of an annoying, whiny position to take. When a person enters the music business, it's business. Music business, to be sure, but still "music" is secondary to "business," when it comes to being in the "music business."

You do what it takes to be a successful businessperson, or you don't stay in business. So that means being flexible and open minded, and learning to enjoy whatever it is you have to do to make a buck. And the great thing about being in the music business, is that you can still make a lot of satisfying art, and nourish your soul and touch others while making your money.

I'm a trumpet player--that is what I do better than anything. But I mostly play the "computer" now. I could get uptight about it, but why? That's the gratitude part, I guess. I feel extremely fortunate to wake up every day, make coffee, and walk to my studio to make my living. For me, that is enough, and I consider myself lucky beyond imagination to be able to do it.

So, I guess that's why I tune out when I hear about musicians being put out of work. If you're just making art for art's sake, and you believe the only way to do it is scraping a bow across a string, or buzzing your lips into a monstrosity of plumbing--well, I guess that's one way to feel. But it seems to me that it ignores the larger picture. Media is everywhere. It all needs music. Everyone must adapt to his environment, whether it's a cockroach or a musician. To me, adapting to the current music business environment has always been painless enough, and a pleasure compared to many worse fates.

Bruce,

This is a post I wish I'd written...only I think you said it better than I could have.

If I'm ever in Dallas, I'd like to take you out for a beer. We think alike.

Fred Story

Bruce, I agree with you. And as a composer, I find it much more satisfying and enjoyable being able to work this way. Staying up all night to copy parts after you were exhausted from writing so you could hear a bunch of students make a mess of it was never all that much fun (well, it was fun, but it had serious drawbacks). There are ten billion reasons why samples and synths are a great thing, and I agree with all of them (because I love the medium). The most important one is that a lot of music that would never get heard otherwise is being created.

However, the argument to what you're saying is that close as you can come, there's nothing like a real orchestra. It would be sad if bow-scraping and razzing into plumbing, etc. became a lost art. There aren't enough orchestras to support all the great players around now...and in fact the audition process favors young people just out of school who have been doing nothing but practicing the audition literature all day long; older musicians who play with more depth because of all their experience are at a disadantage.

So how are those cockroaches going to adapt?

I'm not saying you and I should look back, just saying that I can't dismiss the discussion as easily as you can!

I have never heard this put more clearly than what Bruce said here. There always WAS a whiny tone to that complaint. I never thought consciously about that, but felt it.

Like the arrogant jerk who came on here to trash the Debussy recording, then left because he realized the people here weren't a bunch of pushovers. They are actually working musicians! What a shock.

After all what is a violin? I hate to inform the whiners, but it is technology. Very old, and very perfected technology.

I agree with Nicks balanced assessment.

Remember, a lot of players were put out out work by the sampler phenomenon NY (Broadway etc.) and LA (session.) The motivation here was greed. Prior to samplers/home studios, a low budget feature would have a budget of over $100,000 typically (composer and small orchestra.) When the Producers/Directors realized they could hire one guy with some gear, they were thrilled to pay half or less than before. Then they figured out that they could always get someone cheaper and the standard price for a small feature became $10,000. Then they figured thay could get someone who would do it for royalties only and the fee went to 0.00. This is exactly how things went.
It also opened the door for guys with equipment and zero training to score films while other guys who paid their dues learning the craft were pushed aside.

So it's not all good folks. Sure there may be benefits and new markets and mediums but if the quality of music and music making suffers it won't go unnoticed by players or public.

Dave Connor

I agree Dave, as all the show orchestra players in my town Reno Nevada were put out of work. I was one of them. Played french horn at a casino. There used to be an orchestra at all the casinos, with strings, brass, horns, woodwinds, etc. Now there isn't one.

However, the symphony orchestra here is much better than it used to be. There are no symphonies anywhere that have been put out of business by samplers. Not one. If they have gone out of business it is because of the same problems of funding they've always had.

It is ridiculous and a complete waste of time to complain about samplers because it is like saying the car should never have been invented because it is noiser than the horse. This is purely and simply a financial thing, NOT the art of music at all. The art has not been harmed in the slightest - it has been immensely helped by samplers which are the greatest thing in the history of music ever created for the individual composer.

@William said:

There used to be an orchestra at all the casinos, with strings, brass, horns, woodwinds, etc. Now there isn't one.

In the spirit of the casino, how shall I say? - Bingo.

This is unfortunate to say the least. Particularly for the younger generations who are being deprived of a centuries old tradition: live music ensembles.

We all know the benefits of samplers since everyone here uses them and can't add another fast enough. It should have been an addition to the musical vocabulary not a replacement for the sake of someone's pocketbook getting a little fatter and someone else's a little thinner.

DC

Same here. I totally agree with the advantages of sampling.
And I´m surely no whining personality. I´m a composer and producer which loves working with computers and technologies but also is able to do decent music by hand. I´m actually kind of prototype for this "new" kind of musical personality.
But, however, I love working with *real* virtuosos on an instrument. And you simply don´t become a real virtuoso if you don´t devote your life to your instrument and play on every opportunity you can get. And it´s the todays lack of these opportunities which hinder you living of playing and therefore hinder you devoting your life to your instrument.
(Weird english...)

Ah, forget it.... I´m too tired.