Nick,

I agree with your thoughts and the tone in which you spoke them. Korngold's level of musicality is not something to be debated by an honest musician - only admired. Here I've been a fan of his film music all my life and then I hear his "serious" work, which dances among the greatest classical works I know with total ease. His sense of beauty (as you sighted) is so personal and unique. This combined with an almost supernatural presentation (orchestration) really puts one back in his chair. Yes, he well compares to the great composers you mentioned.

The recording you mentioned (Eric Leinsdorf) is the one I have and is labeled "World Premiere Recording" so I don't think there's any alternatives. The recording, conducting and performances are stunning. The number of orchestrational/textural ideas that even a mature composer could come away with from this piece are quantum.

He has other wonderful compositions as you mentioned including a dazzling string quartet that is brilliantly written and extremely modern sounding.

Dave Connor

This is weird - I was going to make a thread about Korngold earlier today.

The best works of Korngold that I've heard are the Sinfonietta, Die Tote Stadt, Symphony in F#, the film scores to Devotion, Escape Me Never and Between Two Worlds. Of course the Robin Hood and Sea Hawk scores are charming, but not in the same league as these great works.

Those particular film scores are his best because the hyper romantic subject of those movies (which except for Between Two Worlds were not very good films) was nevertheless perfect for Korngold's style.

Die Tote Stadt is an absolute masterpiece and I cannot agree enough with Dave on the astounding invention and unending genius of the work. It is truly overflowing with musical ideas and the most brilliant use of orchestration. The libretto gives Korngold his inspiration, with its darkly romantic tale of the city of the dead and a lost love. I believe it is a more successful opera on an artistic level (though not yet in fame) than any of Richard Strauss's.

The Symphony in F# shows also a great ability but my favorite work - along with Die Tote Stadt - is the Sinfonietta. This piece is the greatest work of musical prodigy in history. It DWARFS Mozart. If you don't believe me, listen to it, and then chew on this - he wrote it when he was 14 years old. Mozart's child/teen music is charming but very simple. The Sinfonietta is a masterpiece beyond the elderly Strauss and equal to Mahler's greatest works. It is truly beyond normal human abilities that someone that age could create this vibrant, brilliantly melodic piece that shows complete and unerring mastery in the use of the largest post-romantic symphony orchestra and absolute perfection of expanded symphonic form and development.

William,

Interesting coincidence.

It's looking like E. W. Korngold has not slipped under the radar after all. At least with some disciples. I hope there is a resurgence of his popularity. I think the Leinsdorf recording may have really started something.

I haven't heard the sinfonietta for a while so you've sold me on picking that up. I believe the symphony in F# may be available in study score but I don't know.

No question that EWK may be the most gifted of the prodigies. I agree about early Mozart. In fact Mendelsohn has better earlier works than he. I think Mid Summer Nights dream at 17!

I will take a look at the early EWK films as well.

Always appreciate your fount of knowledge and informed musical observations.

Dave Connor

Love Korngold. So sophisticated. I consider him the Mahler of film music. So many notes. So much talent. So inspiring.

[:)]

Evan Evans

Another score of Korngold's I really liked was for the ultra-melodramatic "Deception" with Bette Davis. It featured a tortured cellist/composer played by Paul Henreid for whom Korngold wrote a mini cello concerto that was fabulous, and Claude Rains as an imperious conductor who called all string players "gut-scrapers." (My sentiments exactly.)

Also, Korngold's Robin Hood score can be heard music only in sync with the film - no dialogue or sound FX - on the new remastered DVD release.

If only silent films would return and there would be NO SOUND except for music. No surround sound explosions, no jabbering-idiot dialogue - just pure music and cinema - the way it should be.

Found this on a Korngold website. DC

Quotations BY Erich Wolfgang Korngold
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"My musical creed may be called the inspired idea.   With what displeasure one hears this concept nowadays!   And nevertheless: how could the artificial construction, the most exact musical mathematics, triumph over the moving principle of the inspired idea!"     (Interview, May 1926)
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"I feel certain that this picture (Give Us This Night) starts the transition period.  Producers have realized that public taste in music has risen, and we are now conducting a test which will eventually lead to the writing of entire modern operas for the screen.  When that day comes, composers will accept the motion picture as a musical form equal to the opera or the symphony."
(Interview, 1934)

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"When there are sequences when the eye, and not the ear, is the primary object, then the composer has his fling in the writing of incidental background music.  In this branch of musical writing there have been some of the finest examples of orchestral music which our age has produced."
(Commenting on the composition of film music, 1936)

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"Music is music whether it is for the stage, rostrum or cinema.  Form may change, the manner of writing may vary, but the composer needs to make no concessions whatever to what he conceives to be his own musical ideology...  Fine symphonic scores for motion pictures cannot help but influence mass acceptance of finer music. The cinema is a direct avenue to the ears and hearts of the great public and all musicians should see the screen as a musical opportunity."
(Interview, 1946)

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"I believe that my newly completed symphony will show the world that atonality and ugly dissonance at the price of giving up inspiration, form, expression, melody and beauty will result in ultimate disaster for the art of music."
(Letter, 1952)
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"No one tells me what to do.  I do not feel part of a factory.  I take part in story conferences, suggest changes in the editing when it is dramatically necessary to coincide with a musical structure.  It is entirely up to me to decide where in the picture to put music.  But I always consult thoroughly with the music-chief...  I also keep the producer well informed and always secure his consent for my musical intentions first.  But in none of my pictures have I ever 'played' my music first to either the music-chief, the director or the producer.  And the studio heads never make the acquaintance of my music until the day of the sneak preview.  As for my working habits, I like the idea of perfection.  If a thing is not right it is done over and over again."

Here is a site that has several articles by David Raksin on major film composers of the past (all friends of his.)

http://www.americancomposers.org/raksin_intro.htm

DC

Dave,

This is inspiring - thanks for putting it on here. And to think that Korngold was caught in the maelstrom of anti-romanticism and atonality - amazing. He and his magnificent music and fearless attitude are truly an inspiration to me.

William,

I agree. Learning more every day by studying and being inspired by the masters such as EWK.

Did you read any of the Raksins articles? EWK and BH both featured.

EWK composed Die Tote Stadt at 23 years old. That's genius in my book. I don't understand why that term is bandied about. It should be reserved for guys like that.

Dave

Actually I prefer to reserve the term "bandied" for interesting uses, such as that above.

[:)]

Evan Evans

The website Dave refered to is a good resource, and Raksin's comments on his friends - many of the greatest film composers in history - are fascinating.

Dave, did you notice how his comments on Herrmann are a little skewed away from what Evan and I have been discussing on other threads about Herrmann? i.e., Raksin's statements about Herrmann's reliance on "sequences." I would not define them as being, as he implied, either "sequences" or a crutch.

I previously stated that Herrmann's use of simple motifs that can be repeated and expanded and varied through orchestration was a quintessential element of the purest film compositional technique. Evan also has mentioned this in some very interesting statements. Raksin implies that Herrmann was incapable of long, developed melodies and therefore used as a stopgap measure little motifs. But this is first of all not true, and secondly exactly why Herrmann is so great. First, listen for example to the end "Book People" theme in Fahrenheit 451. It is a melody that would have made Ravel proud. Secondly, his reduction of what is needed to motival elements with symphonic rather than leitmotif development is the essence of film scoring stripped of all that is unnecessary.

I think this is probably due to the fact that Raksin did not fully appreciate the difference because he is a more traditional composer than Herrmann. I don't mean to criticize Raksin as I think he is one of the greats. But often they are not fully aware of what their colleagues have done.

William,

David Raksin has been beating the drum about "melody" for as long as I've been aware of him. He considers it "Thee great gift." He is certainly qualified to comment on this as he is responsible for some of the great cinematic melodies. No doubt he fines the lack of tunes in BH's writing troublesome. I agree it may be true that it's an "approach" issue (for the most part) and that Hermann was capable of great melody.

Having encountered Mr. Raksin so many times, I have to say he is in possession of the most brilliant mind and it's doubtful that he is missing anything including what he considers the over use of sequences or any compositional device.

In the case of two great composers I bring it down to choices, philosophies, and not talent.

Turns out Raksin's favorite BH score is the same as mine: The Ghost and Mrs. Muir. Interesting in that Mr's Muir is probably his most melodic score. I think it's stunningly beautiful and perhaps confirms your point in fact.

Dave

Dave,

Very interesting response, as usual. I basically agree about melody. It is the one thing that you can do or not do and if you can, everything else is just technique. Also, I love Raksin's music and desperately want the complete score to "Night Tide" - my favorite film. However Ghost and Mrs. Muir is not Herrmann's greatest by a long shot. Though it is a beautiful score and is probably Raksin's favorite because of his love of longer melodies and the content of the film which is very charming and wistful.

But Herrrmann's greatest score is certainly "Vertigo." And this features his most characteristic style of shorter motifs rather than longer melodies, though he develops them into melodic sections in several parts notably the "Scene d'amour."

I called Raksin once. He was coincidentally listening to my dad playing Laura's theme right then and there. It freaked both him and I out. Anyway, I respect the man and love his music.

But I agree, he DID imply that Herrmann was incapeable of long melody. But jsut listen to teh high romantic string line which against the terse active strings underneath it creates the schizophrenic nature of Psycho. Or listen to Vertigo, it's not only melodic, it's like church music no less! Chords in the left hand and melody in the right. And finally Taxi Driver, played by Tom Scott on Alto. That's nothing but melody at times.

Evan Evans

I agree, Evan. Also, Jason and the Argonauts, main theme - a tremendous heroic melody. Or as I mentioned before - the end of Fahrenheit 451 - a gorgeous tune if ever there was one. Citizen Kane - the main, bustling theme. If tht's not a melody, I sure hope I can also NOT write melodies like that. Marnie - main theme. The Trouble With Harry - secondary lyrical theme (after the great simple 4 note motif) Or the Valse Lente from Obsession. And so on... the fact is, Herrmann so mastered the use of motifs that people mistakenly thought he couldn't write melodies.

Evan,

Amazing coincidence on the Raksin call. Even though us Bill Evans fans tend to have him on quite a bit. BTW his tracks with Jim Hall are sublime. I've Got You Under My Skin is the definition of great music, great jazz. Also the live track of How My Heart Sings from Montreaux is the apex of trio jazz.

William,

Would never offer Mrs. Muir as one of Benny's best ( because his best are such towering achievements) but rather a gorgeous score. It's still a lesson in film scoring to my thinking. I don't know if anyone matched the tone of a scene musically quite like him. North in Sparticus, Goldsmith in Patton come to mind. I think BH is unsurpassed in understanding what visuals call for: Day The Earth Stood Still a classic example.

Dave

I'd love to know where you got the score.

And second - Korngold was a teenager when he wrote Die Tote Stadt.

Actually Dave, I do think Ghost and Mrs. Muir is one of Herrmann's best, though it is difficult to decide what is on that list given the brilliance of all of his music.

Two Herrmann pieces I've recently noticed are the Souvenir de Voyage and Echoes. Have you heard those? They are beautiful later chamber works that reflect some of the film scores, notably Vertigo.

William,

I really like Echoes. Souvinirs is a little less than typical Herrmann and frankly a little boring like his Moby Dick Cantata. But come on, .. it's still THE MAN.

Echoes has been very inspirational to me. Mostly it gave me confidence that simple textural writing with modern harmony can still be classical. And that motivated me to write my own woodwind quartet that has similar harkenings.

Evan Evans

I agree. Echoes is a more inspired and serious musical work, the Souvenirs a lighter, more "pleasant" sounding piece.

Have you heard his Symphony? I cannot get into it. It seems a failure to me, though maybe I need to try it again. Very unlike his film music, which is instantly genius from the first second to the last. I believe that though he felt a need to write concert music, as it is more "respectable" he was born to do film music and his genius really came alive when doing it.