DG, that´s of course very true. The secret lies in the first job.

Paul, thanks for your long post. Why I came up with these things was because I simply wasn´t clear enough with these questions you mention.
These recent orchestral pieces were in fact a try-out if I can do something adequate for filmmusic. But, you´re right, they were not intended as filmscore per se, they´re in fact pieces for pure listening. But it was and is my idea to present my style of composing to directors with these pieces.
The response of this guy was to my question if these pieces are suitable for this kind of presentation. I think he didn´t particularly like the music personally also, but his opinion was first about the possible reaction by directors hearing that music. My misconception was that I believed that directors could like the music as music and at the same time imagine how my style of composing could suit their film.
Maybe it´s about finding the right director.

As usual you're right Mathis - it is definitely finding the right director. The film composers who have done the best have worked on the best films - artistically best, not commercially.

Of course Herrmann, who worked with some of the greatest directors ever, but also among more recent ones Elfman working with Tim Burton, Preisner with Kieslowski, Sarde with Polanski, DelaRue with Truffaut, Badalamenti with Lynch.

Of course in your case and mine we just need to develop a better relationship with the filmmaker we love the most. He is rather difficult to get along with though. I'm not so sure he's even that great a director. And this whole last month he wouldn't even speak to me. And we usually have such great conversations...

@DG said:

Therefore, many good composers never get the chance to score anything...!

Very true DG and allow me to say hello and welcome. I would put up several composers that I've heard in this forum up against any of the named filmscore writers. That doesn't mean of course, that I don't have the highest respect for the A list. It simply serves to underline your point.

No problem Mathis. I was just very angry and have calmed. BUT, the night is young. I may have over reacted on the sympathy front, and I'm convinced that you will do well and there is going to be that first director out there. Young directors are always up and coming and wish to make their mark; it's an ongoing process in any indusrty actually. It's not necesarilly a misconception you mention. That is exactly what could happen with a director one day. I think its the waiting for it to happen that is fustrating.

Make it happen, my friend.

Bests [:D]

Paul

But he's already met a good director - hasn't he Mathis? Or should I say, haven't you Mathis? Met him? That wonderful director named Mathis?

(Warning: Schizophrenia Alert! Composer/Filmmaker Hybrid!)

The problem is that this director is so poor that he can´t pay me. [:'(]
What about your director?

Re directors good and bad and music...

In my experience true A-list directors know what they want and have the confidence to let good people do their job properly. Less able/senior directors can't resist fiddling about/asking for changes/changing their minds/suggesting orchestrations (haha) etc...

Often it is a case of them not feeling comfortable with whats on the screen and filling up the spaces with music. For example many of us will know that the brief for an ad score often includes "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t, doesn't make sense and is on the TV in four days."...


More generally...

Over the last week or so I've heard two amazing scores on old films that I've been rewatching:

Performance - jack nietsche et al : incredible use of sound and image, very modern. Also very groovy.

badlands - very eclectic - like a prototype American Beauty. Wonderful wonderful film too.

Also - another stinker (IMHO) The Straight Story by the otherwise very reliable Angelo Badalamenti. The first cue is horrid synth strings just sitting there failing to emote but just being LOUD. Doesn't get better. Maybe this is not helped by Lynch doing his own mixes on the euphonix at his house (really). All the balances seem crude and ghastly.

Best

@Morpheus said:

Often it is a case of them not feeling comfortable with whats on the screen and filling up the spaces with music. For example many of us will know that the brief for an ad score often includes "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t, doesn't make sense and is on the TV in four days."...Best

Thats a very good point Morpheus. This forthcoming 'blockbuster' Troy will be especially interesting on that score.

Best

Paul

The ultimate demonstation of what Morpheus said is Hitchcock/Herrmann. On both "Vertigo" and "Psycho" Hitchcock gave him NO direction except "write some music." The famous example of this complete freedom was in the shower scene which was to have no music but Hitchcock changed his mind when he heard it.

Mathis, the producer/director I'm working with now is not only completely unreliable and of questionable ability but also incredibly cheap. I doubt I will ever see any money if I continue working on that guy's films! What I'd really like to know is just who does he think he is, treating people like that! It really shouldn't be allowed...

Thats a very good point Morpheus. This forthcoming 'blockbuster' Troy will be especially interesting on that score.


Hmm... sounds intriguing. Maybe I'll have to go see it then (I'll admit I wasn't planning on it!)

Best

@William said:

Mathis, the producer/director I'm working with now is not only completely unreliable and of questionable ability but also incredibly cheap. I doubt I will ever see any money if I continue working on that guy's films! What I'd really like to know is just who does he think he is, treating people like that! It really shouldn't be allowed...

I know what you´re talking about... (sigh) I feel sympathy with you...


P.S.: almost went into "Troy" this evening. Had lust for trash. But the masses of people kept me away from it.

@mathis said:

P.S.: almost went into "Troy" this evening. Had lust for trash. But the masses of people kept me away from it.

Hehe! The "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t," etc from Morpheus reminded me that Gabriel Yared was originally working on the score for Troy.

For whatever reason, the producer, after Yared had worked on the score for some time, decided to replace him at the last minute so to speak, with James Horner.

Could be nothing, but that doesn't look good at this point. Be interested to hear the score (in context of course [8-)] ). Anyone heard it yet?

I'm rambling. Guess why? [:O]ops: Its taken me twenty-five minutes to write this post. I'm out of here.

Bests

Paul

By the look of the trailers Troy should be called Gladiator Too.

Dave Connor

@dpcon said:

Gladiator Too.

[:D] Very funny!

Yes, Paul, I remember the thread on northernsounds. Actually that made me curious. Otherwise I´d never go into a Petersen movie again, he has made so bad films.
I was working a lot in Bavaria Film (sound) studios and it´s curious that still his screendesigns for the "Boat" and "Enemy mine" are the biggest attractions for the tourists. Also Bavaria film studios apparantly didn´t do anything really relevant since that time.. (not that Enemy mine is a relevant film either...)

if you want to hear the rejected score for Troy of Gabriel Yared , go on his officiel website http://www.gabrielyared.com/ , you can listen to all the rejected score , although it's in bad quality, it's a very good score i don't understand why the studios fired him...

edit : it's in the news section

@Another User said:

In my experience true A-list directors know what they want and have the confidence to let good people do their job properly. Less able/senior directors can't resist fiddling about/asking for changes/changing their minds/suggesting orchestrations (haha) etc...

There's an adage in business (told to me by my brother, who's a CFO): first-rate managers hire first-rate people; second-rate managers hire third-rate people.

Thinking about it, that's only marginally relevant.

But it's still cute and true! [:D]

@Carter said:

if you want to hear the rejected score for Troy of Gabriel Yared , go on his officiel website http://www.gabrielyared.com/ , you can listen to all the rejected score , although it's in bad quality, it's a very good score i don't understand why the studios fired him...=edit : it's in the news section

Hi Carter

First of all, many thanks for posting the link. I have taken your advice and listened to all the tracks from Troy by Gabriel Yarad, and whilst I have not heard the 'new' soundtrack by James Horner it's obviously difficult to make a comparative judgement call. I find it very difficult, on listening, to disagree with you on why the studio decided to let this go and have it replaced. I have not seen the film and therefore cannot comment on it as an entertainment at this time. Although, on a late night review program last night, it took a bashing from a panel of three, that included Germaine Greer, whatever thats worth [8-)] . I like to make my own decisions on these things and like to feel that I have the knowledge and experience to do so.

The Approach of The Greeks Great writing imho

Fight scene Must have worked imo

Priams Fugue Great

Achilles & Briseis Excellent

Hector Hector Classical

Greek Funeral Pyre Excellent

End Credits Song Shades of Gladiator (but what the hell!)

These are a few that I've chosen and I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Gabriel Yarad is obviously an extremely accomplished writer and writes powerful scores that stand up in their own right in my view. Once again, thanks for posting the link. Most enjoyable! [:)]

Paul

As you i didn't listened to the whole album of Gabriel Yared, but i think it's a lot better than Horner, who composed this album in his usual way. Brass are powerful in Yared's score, he used also a powerful choir , i loved how he used the percussions in Hector and Achilles Fight, it's definitely a good score

@Carter said:

I loved how he used the percussions in Hector and Achilles Fight, it's definitely a good score

Hi Carter

Thanks for responding. Yes, I think the Fight Scene works very well indeed. You can 'hear' the clanging of swords, which of course, is the idea. I 'spoke' with Gabriel a few days ago by email and the feeling is, it's the best score he's written, and hope's that one day the music will be released. Gabriel Yared has a very good pedigree of course musically, with The English Patient and Cold Mountain etc, and my view is somewhat subjective. I think it's a damn shame this score got dropped. His work is almost 'old school' to my ears, almost epic 'biblical' style scoring and I can't see any problem with that.

My thoughts with the film Troy, for what it's worth, are that it's going to be a bit of a chinese takeaway. 10 minutes after you've seen it, you will have forgotten it. I will have to see it though now, which is a bit irratating. It's hardly going to be in the same class as Das Boot, I wouldn't think.

Best

Paul

@PaulR said:

You can 'hear' the clanging of swords, which of course, is the idea.

Sorry to bug here, but if it actually is a sword fight happening on the screen then it´s a very very bad idea to use sword clangs in music. They will interfere with the sound effect clangs and it will sound very very bad.