Another thing, Mathis - this "Film Composer" expert assumes that one element from the music to add to the film is all that is needed. Why? Why can't film use a complex interplay between multiple elements within and without the music that contrast and amplify each other?

The answer is because that's complex, and commercial people don't want complexity. It is dangerous, and they want safety above all else.

Good morning!

Personally I actually feel quite confident with my music and the approach to it (after some afterthought). The problem nevertheless starts with my idea of making a profession out of it. This guy is well into business for a long time, mostly advertising. Honestly I never really liked his music but I am jealous of his business. (very honest.... [:D] )
Currently for me it comes down to a basic question: Should one try to appeal as general expectations as possible or should one develop his own idea of music and wait till the right director comes and wants *your* music (always talking about filmmusic here). Of course I always would vote for the latter one but in a situation like mine where I have to face severe financial problems and am eager to come into business it´s difficult to trust idealism.
This guy starts his showreel with a more or less literal copy of John Williams style. Is this clever or silly? It seems hard to find an answer to that.

Have a nice day,
- Mathis

One possible answer can be summed up in a word...

Familiarity.

The masses seek the familiar. It's one reason for the current trend in licensing popular songs for advertising instead of creating memorable original music. Especially in the area of 'jingles', it would appear that the golden age of the catchy tune written for the ad is behind us. (There are always exceptions, of course. The current McDonald's campaign 'I'm Lovin' It' here in the U.S. is a pretty good example.)

Several years ago, if an ad agency used film music as a temporary score for a TV spot, it was almost always Danny Elfman. Lately it's almost always Thomas Newman. And they don't WANT me to be original...no matter how much they SAY they do. (Again, there are exceptions...and I dearly love these clients.) What's the reason?

Familiarity.

William is right. They don't want to take chances. Again, they SAY they do...but they don't really. The mentality seems to be, "Here's a sound that's proven...let's do that." And in this era of media saturation, time is money. It costs more to establish an original sound in an ad campaign than it does to cut right to the chase with something the audience already knows.

I think this mentality bleeds into the film world, too. The only film I was ever fired from was partially because I continually resisted the director's insistence that I stay dangerously close to the temp music...all of which was from one well-known A-list composer. Of course, when I tried to diplomatically suggest that I WASN'T this composer, that he had hired me to bring MY voice to the film...well, let's just say he was insulted that I would suggest he thought otherwise. Yet, all subsequent direction led cue after cue right back to the temp music. (I ended up getting fired because this process ended up taking so long, we ended up woefully behind schedule and I had committed to another project. It was a relief.)

But you know, as I write I wonder why I'm taking the time to weigh in on this subject. I wonder if we have any power to change the situation. Speaking for myself, I win some - I lose some. At the end of the day, at least I have a happy client. And as long as I don't allow myself to step over the line (I just lost a pretty major ad campaign because I wouldn't rip off a tune the client didn't want to pay the licensing fee for), I still get to write music every day for a living. And I have enough clients who really WANT to know what I think to keep it challenging and stimulating.

Things could sure be worse.

Fred Story

Dear Fred,

thanks for your writing and your insights. B.t.w. the guy I spoke to was in fact one the guys which are responsible for the McDonald´s world-wide campaign, 8 months of hard work... [[:|]]

To clarify a possible misunderstanding, I hope not to sound too lamenting. It´s not that I moan about current music business (although there´s enough to moan about), it´s about the personal music vs. music as a service problem. I feel currently a bit lost between these too worlds. As an expression of art my current composing is too commercial and for the commercial world it seems to be too arty. A bit strange situation and I feel I have to decide. at least for a certain period.

Out of the window I see a duck with 11 chicks, that´s my favorite number! [:D]

Bests,
- Mathis

Fred, it sounds like you've got a situation that allows you to do good music. But I had that "copycat" situation happen to me more than once. The first time I didn't lose the job. I wrote some insipid pablum for it. But to me it wasn't worth the money. The worst music I've written has been for lousy jobs like that.

Mathis, this guy had a carbon copy of John Williams and if you had given him the same he would have loved it. In other words, if you negated yourself and became someone else he would have loved it.

You must stay away from anyone who thinks that way. I didn't used to, but nowadays, if someone approached me with money and wanted what somebody else did - I would tell them in no uncertain terms what I thought of the whole stupid concept. I was recently fired from a job for that. But it no longer matters to me, because those jobs are never worth whatever you think you'll get from them.

I am so sick of John Williams copies. And all the rest of the copies. As soon as someone - anyone with the slightest originality - comes out, maybe Elfman now after John Williams, then he too is copied.

Don't be one of the copies - be the original that they try to copy.

Hi William,

thinking about it one more day I came to the conclusion that I myself simply can do no other. In fact all these recent pieces were originally meant as appealing pieces to directors. Well, this is what came out and I´m sure the next time I will" fail" again. So, I have to face that.
It will probably take longer to get into business my way as on the other road but, you´re right, I wouldn´t feel happy at all on that other road.
Still I respect this guy´s attitude and professionality. As a speculation I would say he might not feel well on another road like his one since he´s a different personality and he obviously feels very well on his road.

Thanks again for your very encouraging words!
Best regards,
- Mathis

A very wise plan. Your "failure" is actually a success - that is sometimes very hard to see but you are absolutely right.

What you said here reminds me of something Jean Cocteau said: determine what other people criticize in you. Then do more of it. It is you.

I guess this would apply mainly to artistic style though, rather than something like laziness!

Like the criticism "Fellini was so self-indulgent." Well of course he was. That's what was great about him.

@mathis said:

Still I respect this guy´s attitude and professionality. As a speculation I would say he might not feel well on another road like his one since he´s a different personality and he obviously feels very well on his road.- Mathis

Mathis,

This pains me to hear that. I told you before 'no one could ever acuse you of being commercial'. This composer could have said ' I write wishy-washy music, because 90% of films/TV require that type of thing'. I don't care if this guy is your best friend. People make judgement calls like that to make themselves look good in front of others, or they're talking to themselves. This guy probably realizes you have respect for his methods. That just makes it easier for him to unload. Either way, it makes those kind of people feel good, even if they think they have the best of intentions.

He told you that 'emotion' has to build up! OK. Not on this thread. Most times, the only build up of emotion in filmscore music had been hacked and if you take it out of it's context, you'd find yourself wandering off to the bog.

The music you have posted here thus far, was never really set out to be 'filmscore' music was it? These to me, are their own pieces that don't really need any images to go with them. More relevant questions would be 'What exactly do you want to get from your writing?' Money? Artistic achievement?

If you want money, then as Fred put it, you need to write familiar stuff thats not going to frighten anyone. A lot of the people that do the hiring, with some exceptions of course, are living in a musical and artistic void. They are trying to appeal to the masses. By pure definition, it's not a pre-requisite for the masses to have to think. You can't beat their system if you want them to pay you. Life is always a comprimise when dealing with the less knowledgeable (Gadderine swine). And I don't have any axes to grind. You'll just have to trust me on that.

This is why we all like to discuss Hermmann and the others. These people within the filmscore industry are few and definately not run-of-the-mill. They combined or combine, making a living with artistic achievement.
The type that talked to you are plentiful. Not just in music, but most industries. If he's a good friend of yours, then sorry. I think the guy's a tosser to put it like that.

Thanks for the welcome and it's good talking with you again. [:)] My spelling has deterioated though.

Bests (Ahhaaa!)


Paul

What you all must remember is that composers don't get offered films to score just because they are good, it is dependent to a large degree on their credit list. Therefore, many good composers never get the chance to socre anything...!

DG, that´s of course very true. The secret lies in the first job.

Paul, thanks for your long post. Why I came up with these things was because I simply wasn´t clear enough with these questions you mention.
These recent orchestral pieces were in fact a try-out if I can do something adequate for filmmusic. But, you´re right, they were not intended as filmscore per se, they´re in fact pieces for pure listening. But it was and is my idea to present my style of composing to directors with these pieces.
The response of this guy was to my question if these pieces are suitable for this kind of presentation. I think he didn´t particularly like the music personally also, but his opinion was first about the possible reaction by directors hearing that music. My misconception was that I believed that directors could like the music as music and at the same time imagine how my style of composing could suit their film.
Maybe it´s about finding the right director.

As usual you're right Mathis - it is definitely finding the right director. The film composers who have done the best have worked on the best films - artistically best, not commercially.

Of course Herrmann, who worked with some of the greatest directors ever, but also among more recent ones Elfman working with Tim Burton, Preisner with Kieslowski, Sarde with Polanski, DelaRue with Truffaut, Badalamenti with Lynch.

Of course in your case and mine we just need to develop a better relationship with the filmmaker we love the most. He is rather difficult to get along with though. I'm not so sure he's even that great a director. And this whole last month he wouldn't even speak to me. And we usually have such great conversations...

@DG said:

Therefore, many good composers never get the chance to score anything...!

Very true DG and allow me to say hello and welcome. I would put up several composers that I've heard in this forum up against any of the named filmscore writers. That doesn't mean of course, that I don't have the highest respect for the A list. It simply serves to underline your point.

No problem Mathis. I was just very angry and have calmed. BUT, the night is young. I may have over reacted on the sympathy front, and I'm convinced that you will do well and there is going to be that first director out there. Young directors are always up and coming and wish to make their mark; it's an ongoing process in any indusrty actually. It's not necesarilly a misconception you mention. That is exactly what could happen with a director one day. I think its the waiting for it to happen that is fustrating.

Make it happen, my friend.

Bests [:D]

Paul

But he's already met a good director - hasn't he Mathis? Or should I say, haven't you Mathis? Met him? That wonderful director named Mathis?

(Warning: Schizophrenia Alert! Composer/Filmmaker Hybrid!)

The problem is that this director is so poor that he can´t pay me. [:'(]
What about your director?

Re directors good and bad and music...

In my experience true A-list directors know what they want and have the confidence to let good people do their job properly. Less able/senior directors can't resist fiddling about/asking for changes/changing their minds/suggesting orchestrations (haha) etc...

Often it is a case of them not feeling comfortable with whats on the screen and filling up the spaces with music. For example many of us will know that the brief for an ad score often includes "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t, doesn't make sense and is on the TV in four days."...


More generally...

Over the last week or so I've heard two amazing scores on old films that I've been rewatching:

Performance - jack nietsche et al : incredible use of sound and image, very modern. Also very groovy.

badlands - very eclectic - like a prototype American Beauty. Wonderful wonderful film too.

Also - another stinker (IMHO) The Straight Story by the otherwise very reliable Angelo Badalamenti. The first cue is horrid synth strings just sitting there failing to emote but just being LOUD. Doesn't get better. Maybe this is not helped by Lynch doing his own mixes on the euphonix at his house (really). All the balances seem crude and ghastly.

Best

@Morpheus said:

Often it is a case of them not feeling comfortable with whats on the screen and filling up the spaces with music. For example many of us will know that the brief for an ad score often includes "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t, doesn't make sense and is on the TV in four days."...Best

Thats a very good point Morpheus. This forthcoming 'blockbuster' Troy will be especially interesting on that score.

Best

Paul

The ultimate demonstation of what Morpheus said is Hitchcock/Herrmann. On both "Vertigo" and "Psycho" Hitchcock gave him NO direction except "write some music." The famous example of this complete freedom was in the shower scene which was to have no music but Hitchcock changed his mind when he heard it.

Mathis, the producer/director I'm working with now is not only completely unreliable and of questionable ability but also incredibly cheap. I doubt I will ever see any money if I continue working on that guy's films! What I'd really like to know is just who does he think he is, treating people like that! It really shouldn't be allowed...

Thats a very good point Morpheus. This forthcoming 'blockbuster' Troy will be especially interesting on that score.


Hmm... sounds intriguing. Maybe I'll have to go see it then (I'll admit I wasn't planning on it!)

Best

@William said:

Mathis, the producer/director I'm working with now is not only completely unreliable and of questionable ability but also incredibly cheap. I doubt I will ever see any money if I continue working on that guy's films! What I'd really like to know is just who does he think he is, treating people like that! It really shouldn't be allowed...

I know what you´re talking about... (sigh) I feel sympathy with you...


P.S.: almost went into "Troy" this evening. Had lust for trash. But the masses of people kept me away from it.

@mathis said:

P.S.: almost went into "Troy" this evening. Had lust for trash. But the masses of people kept me away from it.

Hehe! The "help us all save our jobs! We've spent all the money, it looks like sh*t," etc from Morpheus reminded me that Gabriel Yared was originally working on the score for Troy.

For whatever reason, the producer, after Yared had worked on the score for some time, decided to replace him at the last minute so to speak, with James Horner.

Could be nothing, but that doesn't look good at this point. Be interested to hear the score (in context of course [8-)] ). Anyone heard it yet?

I'm rambling. Guess why? [:O]ops: Its taken me twenty-five minutes to write this post. I'm out of here.

Bests

Paul