Although I haven't seen the movie I do have listened to the score... it sounds very beautiful, full of orchestral colours, though sometimes a bit "clichés"... I think JNH has shown over the years that he can handle any project, but if I had to compare it with Williams', I'd said that orchestrally and thematically the latest is quite superior... In a recent review I read that JNH usually relies on trying things on his samplers then develop everything, and that only on a few scores he has fully used his contrapunctual skills and wrote everything with pencil and on a table rather than using samples, which is exactly the opposite that John Williams do... this must be the reason why Williams handles orchestral might so well, after so many pencil-written scores... I have listened to his Hook 3 cd complete score and there's an incredible work in it, the themes evolve smoothly, there's a whole universe created for this movie, to me this score describes almost perfectly neverland without having to watch the image... JNH is impressive but it's more an effects score than the whole thing... I'm still sort of missing something in it...

After watching the trailer JNH's score must work very well in the movie, but to me Williams' score is more a study reference than Howard's (and I love both composers).... but hey, that's only my amateur opinion [;)]

Regards,

Iván.

@Another User said:

I have listened to his Hook 3 cd complete score

[[:|]] ...Iván, please, where did you find it? ...3 cd complete score... [8-)] in Italy, I never seen it!

Rino

Hi, Rino, I don't have it, as I've only heard it in a friend's house... apparently he got it from a peer 2 peer program, if you are really interested I could ask him which one is it, the sound was not pretty good though, quite a lot of analogue noise in it in some cues, but the highlight was probably "the Face of Pan suite", I listened to it 5 times in a row... really emotive...Here in Spain there are some dedicated "rare soundtrack stores", and there was a "hook extended" (2 cds), a bit too expensive, and as the sound was still a bit low-fi I haven't bought it... I don't know if they are selling to europe, but I could also ask if you are interested... Just PM me or email me if you want.

Regards, Ivan.

Hi Ivan...
...oh I see... never mind, it was just a bit of curiosity... I've thought it was an official (hi-fi...!) CD... I've got the original soundtrack anyway...

...oh... about JNH... I like his "Signs" very much!

...and about JW... he's great! How to forget "Star wars" "Indiana Jones" "Jurassic Park" "Schindler's List"? (mhmm... also, I think [:O]ops:, he likes very much... Prokofiev!!!)

"Peter Pan"? ...I think we'll see it next year... here!

Ciao a tutti!
Rino

hehe, to me, JNH's best are Dinosaur, the Fugitive and the 6Th sense though some cues from other scores like Signs (wow what a final climax!!!) or Alive! are astonishing

As for Williams, his best to me are Empire Strikes Back, E.T. and Schindler's list, in fact those three scores are among the main reasons I am engaged to filmscoring [;)]

Ci vediamo!

JNH is certainly a talented fellow. However, there are some glaring weaknesses in his part writing that you would never find in any film composers from the beginning of Hollywood movies up through todays "schooled" composers such as John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith (and many younger composers such as David Newman.) This speaks to the phenomenon of Rock and Roll musician/producer as film composer. Some make the transition better than other's. Danny Elfman is probably the most successful musically (whatever his method) as far as good solid compositional technique. JNH (a gifted keyboadist arranger) often times demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of fundamental compositional principles and pulls me right out of the film experience because it shocks my system in a way. On the other hand he can do very well if the writing is more keyboard like in nature and still translates well into the orchestra as in "Dave" which I think is one of his best scores.

I make this point for the sole reason that younger composers should be able to hear these things and not be too enamored with a big beautiful orchestral sound (which is only an expansion of a musical idea.) One must be able to detect the essence of the musical thought regardless of it's presentation.

Dave Connor

Sad that you are so well versed in the principals of orchestration, that it can pull you right out of a movie.

Could you give me an example of this... a track of JNH that is so bad that it does this?

Anyway, a core I really like from him is Unbreakable... and for pure action I recommend Waterworld...

@Another User said:

"I make this point for the sole reason that younger composers should be able to hear these things and not be too enamored with a big beautiful orchestral sound (which is only an expansion of a musical idea.) One must be able to detect the essence of the musical thought regardless of it's presentation."

Dave Connor

I also agree with that... I think that is the reason too, why Zimmer reached so many people (at least in the beggining) with very simple things... (but boy, isn't it also incredible when there is a good orchestration behind [[;)]] ?


Regards,

Iván

Does it really matter how good at the principals of orchetration they are? I mean.. it apeartently matters to you guys, in terms of listening experience... but as a filmcomposer it matters not. They are highly successful - and more so than any of us will likely be - even combined.

The music they do works, and they have a keen sense for themes, and how to really boost the emotion the filmmaker wants to display...

@Christian Marcussen said:

Does it really matter how good at the principals of orchetration ...

Yeah, I think it does.

It matters to most of us because of our particular interest. But I think it also matters to a film going audience with no formal training in music in a sublimanal way.

For example, one of the best 'sections' of music in a film for me, comes towards the end of Shawshank Redemption; the bit where Morgan Freemans character is going up to the stone wall under the tree to find the tin box etc. Thomas Newman's score and orchestration combined is absolutely brilliant IMHO. Completely defines the scene without distracting you from whats happening on the screen.

I may be wrong, but had that piece of music been badly scored, it may not have worked so well as it does and been noticed negatively by an audience not versed in the principals of orchestration, even if they couldn't explain why.

Yes, the music they do works and they're probably highly sucessful because a lot of them have good orchestration and thematic techniques.

Better than any of us - even combined?

You've just gone to the top of the popularity poll.

Congrats [[;)]]

@Another User said:

They are highly successful - and more so than any of us will likely be - even combined.

If you must hate me, then atleast quote me correctly... I NEVER said they were better... I chose my words very carefully...

My appologies Christian [:D]

@Christian Marcussen said:

Does it really matter how good at the principals of orchetration they are? I mean.. it apeartently matters to you guys, in terms of listening experience... but as a filmcomposer it matters not. They are highly successful - and more so than any of us will likely be - even combined. The music they do works, and they have a keen sense for themes, and how to really boost the emotion the filmmaker wants to display...

Christian,

By "highly successful" you must be referring to working on many big films that are themselves commercially successful. I am talking about how well they are succeeding musically not commercially.

Here's a perspective that may clarify things. I have the recording of Alexander North's score to Stanly Kubrick's 2001 - which was thrown out by the director. In this case you could argue that the score was a total failure. Artistically it failed to please Mr. Kubrick and commercially it failed to even make it into even one theatre. Musically (in every way) it is a stunning success. I would rather listen to this score than dozens of wildly successful present day film scores.

My point is, that the day of the majority of film scores being musically sound has passed. What's worse than that, is if up and coming film composer's don't even recognize it due to there own lack of training.

Mr. Elfman (who no doubt benefited hugely from Steve Bartek's brilliance) as I stated, "whatever his methods" (relying upon a good orchestrator to help with fundamentals and more) does not let his scores out with musical weakness right and left. That's probably a good idea if someone is lacking in musical training.

Finally, I am trying to stir the pot here a little so that younger guys - I'm 48 - will perhaps consider the merits and ramifications of my point. In Mr. Newton Howard's favor he is getting by pretty OK on talent alone and has improved in counterpoint and so on. He can aslo be extremly effective on every level (The Sixth Sense.) Honestly though, he should know that parrallel octaves are monumentally unsound unless used with high intention: (Beethoven's 9th opening figure)

One should consider the legacy being left by such masterful musicians as Jerry Goldsmith and Ennio Morricone. I want to follow in their footsteps.

Very fun all this,

Dave Connor

Finally, I am trying to stir the pot here a little so that younger guys - I'm 48 - Dave Connor[/quote]...

I know he won't mind me saying this, but he's actually 48 tomorrow. Happy Birthday in advance if I don't catch you later.

Paul

Dave,

How does one get ones' hands on North's original 2001 score? This isn't something commercially available on CD is it?

Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design
www.concentrixmusic.com

Peter Pan which I have seen 3 times now is one of the best films I have ever seen. I gave it a 9.98 one of the highest scores i have ever given a film. I had 3 qualms with it.

1) There seemed to be a lack of money spent on shots containing the alligator. There was something missing there.
2) I did not like the grandma's silly acting. Everyone else was so genuine.
3) I also didn't need the father to be Captain Hook. It was so "Jumanji". Ech. But this point is negated by the fact that the father did a superb job as hook.

I thought HOOK by Spielberg was hollywood rubbish. The score was very good but I didn't care for it. It is just pretty music.

JNH's score on the other hand never got in the way and brought the film to new levels. For instance "A kiss is a powerful thing" section, where he resorts to synthesizers to bring the film to a new level was ingenious. And all the while using the same three note motif used throughout the film but most poignantly found at the very beginning of the film.

Evan Evans

[quote=PaulR] I know he won't mind me saying this, but he's actually 48 tomorrow. Happy Birthday in advance if I don't catch you later.

Well thank you good sir. Looks like I'm in for a philosophical lesson in how quickly tomorrow becomes today. [[;)]]

Dave

[quote=Fred Story]Dave,

How does one get ones' hands on North's original 2001 score? This isn't something commercially available on CD is it?

Fred,

Yes it should be available at the usual outlets. Jerry Goldsmith conducted this somewhat recent recording (he loves North's music.) I must tell you that as usual the music is just great and a must for all North fans.

I actually have an mp3 that my brother downloaded from somewhere. So let me know if you can't find it and I'll look into that. I imagine you would want the CD as do I.

Dave

[quote="evanevans"JNH's score on the other hand never got in the way and brought the film to new levels. For instance "A kiss is a powerful thing" section, where he resorts to synthesizers to bring the film to a new level was ingenious. And all the while using the same three note motif used throughout the film but most poignantly found at the very beginning of the film.

Evan here is of course confirming my earlier point that JNH's strength's are in things that are keyboard oriented in nature.

I can't imagine Evan teaching a class in orchestration where he would suggest doubling the Tuba with the Oboe in the former's lower register. Fundamental errors of that kind will get the attention of those who have even a cursory knowledge of musical principles. JNH has gotten my attention in this way many, many, times. But as I said he has also held my attention with wonderful work.

I am not ranting against JNH if you read my balanced posts. I am encouraging musicians who aspire to whatever heights in film or concert music not to be caught up in sound only but sound writing as well.

Cheers,

Dave Connor

P.S. Evan you mustn't disappear like that again for a good long while as it's far too distressing to your comrades here who miss the "caffeine" you provide
(in jolts to be sure.) [:)]

I guess I raved about that "2001" score elsewhere, but it's true it is a masterpiece - a piece of film music that is better than most symphonies. And it was rejected by Kubrick. That should be an inspiration to any musician who ever felt ignored or mistreated.

I also agree about Elfman who is one of the few of the newer bunch of film composers who has done something significantly different from Williams - especially in his humorous, ironic, Satie-like approach. Probably in his case, I do think it is some kind of genius that has allowed him to go beyond his lack of formal training since that is apparently the case.

But Dave (happy birthday!) has a good point about the lack of serious study among composers who do nothing but pop stuff then make a lot of money and presto-chango! You're a film composer! Not in my book. You're one if you are as expert as Herrmann as a conductor/orchestrator/ melodist, as experienced in the use of symphonic development and the leitmotif (attention, Dietz) as Korngold and Steiner, and as original in the invention of themes as Raksin, de la Rue, Rosza, Newman, Waxman, Tiomkin not to mention Jerry Goldsmith. In other words, though there is a pop aspect to it, film music has truly evolved into an art and is far more than the the flash-in-the-pan mentality it is often viewed with.

Unfortunately as I noted elsewhere so much of it is stuck to god-awful films. Sorry Evan, but I would not touch that Peter Pan turkey with a ten foot baster. If only composers could generate their own movies to their own scores (my approach, but never mind that - it tends to produce schizoid delusions in its practitioners).