I suppose evanevans has some "scoop" no one else could know, however I would guess that the secret is the shower scene was originally to have no music but Herrmann surprised Hitchcock (which is what happened).

I agree with much of what groove says. That is a good point to raise with Torn Curtain. The scene involved, in which Hitchcock stated he wanted to show in a direct way how hard it can be to kill a man, was done with no music for a reason. To make it more brutal and inhuman. No matter how great the music is, there is always something of a "commentary" being made as soon as it is heard. In other words, the director wants to "communicate" with us through the composer about the meaning of the scene. When there is no music at all, something else can happen - a raw, unadulterated reality that can be a thousand times more shocking and powerful than any commentary.

Which is an odd thing for a composer to say, but I actually believe it because cinema itself is an art form all by itself and it is debatable whether or not music should be used at all in film.

Though before anyone starts shrieking at me how ridiculous that is I agree that some of the greatest movies ever made are great because of their music scores.

That got off the subject but was suggested by the powerful evidence of that scene in Torn Curtain.

I suppose it's alright to go along these lines. After all, scoring a film is a type of orchestrating of film i.e. arranging the music with the film. This speaks to the correct notion of music as one of the many elements that make up a film (not a profound point but rather curiously debated around here.)

One of my favorite Goldsmith scores is Coma which has a brilliant score. However, there is no music for the first hour. Since the first hour is mainly set in a dry clinical setting of a hospital there is no music. The story as well stays in this clinical environment. The music would have added an element that just isn't on the screen and doesn't need to be either.

As soon as things get dramatic, regardless of the setting and including the hospital, in comes JG like the master that he is. Great great score.

So I agree with the importance of music even if it's found important to keep it out.

Dave Connor

...

To take a hint from Dave and mention something back on orchestration but in the light of film, I'm wondering if anyone has noticed the scores of Roy Webb. Though he wrote an enormous amount of stuff in the 40s, his best music was for the films of Val Lewton - the original Cat People, I Walked with a Zombie, Seventh Victim, Isle of the Dead, Leopard Man, Curse of the Cat People, and several others. These have some of the most remarkable music written at the time, both in the impressionistic harmony featuring a lot of bitonality, and in the imaginative approach to the orchestration especially in dealing with the lack of funds on a relatively low budget studio production.

His scoring was for strings, harp, only a couple of brass players, but about six woodwinds with doubling on different instruments - oboe switching to english horn, clarinet to bass clarinet. He got a maximum amount of color and variety in his orchestration, with a minimum number of players. This is almost unheard of today, with the approach of so many composers who in order to show how masterful they are smear huge sections and ensembles (or have their orchestators do so) over simplistic, often monophonic themes.

Also, Webb's music exhibited another rarity of today - subtlety. He would score for example in I Walked with a Zombie a solo flute playing a haunting pianissimo motif over the delicate, ethereal black and white cinematography with no sound effects except maybe a trace of low wind or reverberating footsteps. This exquisite approach is all but forgotten in today's thunderous dolby5.1 cacophony.

Alright.

To the person who can correctly tell me the age Herrmann was when he wrote the score to Psycho, I will send a very special something related to the subject that NO ONE else has.

And yes, it is a trick question. And I'll be making sure you didn't guess. But although it's a trick question, the answer IS TRUE, and will shock you all.

Evan Evans

...

@evanevans said:

Alright.
And yes, it is a trick question. And I'll be making sure you didn't guess. But although it's a trick question, the answer IS TRUE, and will shock you all.
Evan Evans

Hmm, a trick ha? I know! He didn't write the score - you ghost wrote it, pre-incarnation, so he could finish ghost writing the score to Pillow Talk?

@PaulR said:

Eighteen. He was at Julliard NY music college.

This was the answer I was searching for. How did you know this? Can you explain to everyone how you came to this answer?

The interesting thing is that you have answered with knowledge that is extremely undocumented. There lies maybe two documents in existence that dates this material back this far. The public opinion, even if you understand the "secret" is 1935, when he was 24.

But the correct answer, FROM MY MEMORY, is 19. But you could be right if you calculate birthday and such.

So, for your reward, you'll have to explain a little, but you have already mentioned some things that tell me you have the definitive answer. [:)]

Evan Evans

I maybe a bit lost but are you just saying he reused his themes/thematic elements and one theme used in Psycho pre dates the Sinfonietta as Smith points out in "A heart a Fire's Center" (sic).

Or are you actually saying he wrote the Psycho score before the movie had been conceived ?

Thanks

Nick

...

The film was not conceived until 1960 so if Herrmann had some motifs or whatever is being referred to that he later developed it was not Psycho. It was material he later developed into that score.

So, no one knows or has heard of Roy Webb? Maybe Val Lewton?

No? Believe me, you are missing something!

PaulR,

Still awaiting the explanation for the reward. Good work!

Evan Evans

William,

Sorry didn't get around to responding.

Roy Webb - fabulous composer! Wonderful main titles that guy has written. And score of course. How large was his output? It seems I've seen his name so many times.

Val Lewton - you will have to remind me of his films.

Dave Connor

William,

Sorry didn't get arond to responding.

Roy Webb - fabulous composer! Wonderful main titles that guy has written. And score of course. How large was his output? It seems I've seen his name so many times.

Val Lewton - you will have to remind me of his films.

Dave Connor

Hi Dave

Lewton's films were the low budget RKO horror productions of the 40s: Cat People, I Walked with a Zombie, Curse of the Cat People, Leopard Man, Seventh Victim, Isle of the Dead, Bedlam, The Body Snatcher. They are extremely atmospheric, black and white little films, imaginative use of standing sets of RKO (for example the Magnificent Ambersons' mansion) and famous for the use of suggestion instead in evoking horror instead of monsters, makeup, etc. But Roy Webb really outdid himself on the scores. They were recently re-recorded as one of that great series of old film scores on the Marco Polo label (which includes the Universal monster movies) reconstructed and orchestrated (by ear) from the original three staff scores by John Morgan to match the original orchestrations. An extremely difficult thing to do - listening to the old film soundtrack mixed with dialogue, effects, etc. as your only guide. They sound flawless to me.

...

Oh my oh my...

Where would we be without Paul on the VSL forum? I laughed so many times at that last one that I had to keep finding my place.

The first time I ever responded to a post of his, it went something like this, "Who would have thought that the most brilliant mind on the forum would show up in the form of comic relief?" I must confess it was a response to one of Evans posts (shocker there.)

Well I'm satisfied to finely know the answer to the Herrmann riddle, so can we drop this now and continue in this very serious vein about.........? gee.... what's this thread about again? where...? what...? who...? wherefore art thou...
hmm...
is this a Shakespeare thread?

David Connor

btw sorry about the redundant posts guys. I tend to edit after a glance, then find myself in duplicate later. A few peole have posted their IQ's on the forum. Obviously there's no need here. Can't operate a web browser so, no mystery there.

Cheers

DC

I decided to delete this not on any legal grounds but because of excessive silliness. I get that way at times and I guess this should be a more serious discussion.