That's cool Nick. I'd like to interject here about my thoughts on Logic, but then this whole thread is going to turn into a debate. So in the spirit of peace, I'll instead try to diffuse this debate and say:

(nothing)

Evan Evans

I personally have a lot of concerns about NI and Kontact in particular in regards to Mac development.

I've followed this product since it came out, and in my own personal view..their mac development has been on a constant backburner. Either that or they just dont' have the resources to pull this off in any kind of timeframe.

@Gary Lionelli said:

Peter,
Some of your points re MOTU are well taken. Their isolationist behavior is also similar to that of Digidesign, but in the end, they do have a great product in DP and MachFive. I hope that Apple has no plans to undercut DIGI and MOTU and that they will continue to foster the Mac music platform in general, and be less interested in training Logic to be a MOTU/DIGI killer. I would also say that while initially after Apple's acquisition of Emagic there seemed to a mini exodus from Digital Performer to Logic, I have witnessed (and like you Peter, no polls taken) that many of the those same people gave Logic their best shot only to retreat to Digital Performer after finding Logic so un-Logical. This is a general comment I've heard SO many times. I've spent many a night sitting up in bed with the Logic manual, and thinking "No, this can't be how I'll have to do this!" If you look at DP, ProTools and StudioVision (remember that), they are VERY similar in approach, construction, operation, and philosophy (of course with emphasis on different things), and they are cut from the same cloth. Many people have spent years in and have grown to really appreciate this kind of working environment and as a result, find Logic very difficult to deal with. I do not think this will change unless Apple gives Logic an extreme makeover.

Anyhow, that said, I am a Digital Performer user and my original intent for posting on this subject was to see if HERB would care to comment on VSL development for MachFive.

1. You can learn Logic to a basic level within a day. I can say this because I wrote an online Logic 4.0 class that got people happening in a matter of hours, simply because it was organized procedurally. If you'd like a copy, even though my name isn't Herb, e-mail me and I'll get you a copy.

But the issue with Logic and other programs always falls back to a single word: training. Great programs with no training, stay small. When I talk about how IBM trains its people and its customers, I always get the hee haw. But IBM is still in business and Steinberg and Emagic were bought because they failed financially. People at Steinberg NA talked to me about this recently. Many times the NA office would offer suggestions and direction for the NA market. Most often, they were either ignored or overruled. And we saw the same attitude with Emagic. The owners were good enough and slick looking enough to attend NAMM, to bask in the PR glow of their own Valhalla, but too good to really meet with people who supported them through sales and third party support.

2. The idea expressed that a company can make a good product but still remain aloof is a common belief, even among those who own said companies. But the model ultimately fails. To me, your statements simply enable MOTU to remain dysfunctional. Similar support is proferred for another sampling company. But what is the result in the marketplace? Consumer anger. Falling sales. Distrust. Alienation.

We're in a new ball game. That behavior won't work in a marketplace that requires relationship, trianing and coaching support.

Regarding not being Herb, I'm not. It's not my company. But I am a user. And what I don't want as a user, is yet another product from a relationally dysfunctional company that screws up both my deadlines and places unnecessary hits in my writing career, and then when I call or e-mail me a support question, tells me the problem is with everyone else other than them.

@dfc said:

I personally have a lot of concerns about NI and Kontact in particular in regards to Mac development.

I've followed this product since it came out, and in my own personal view..their mac development has been on a constant backburner. Either that or they just dont' have the resources to pull this off in any kind of timeframe.

This is untrue. Check out Kontakt 1.5.

@Peter Alexander said:

This is untrue. Check out Kontakt 1.5.

Well, Kontakt, if you have it in your AudioUnits folder, as it turns out, limits you to only loading 10,240 samples. I know this because I am a "special" someone running a "special" version of Logic which allows me to open 16,384 files. So right off the bat, Kontakt is already doing detrimental things to Emagic's software.

And you have to despise that darn CD authorization that keeps popping up every month. Native Instruments. errr.

Anyway, it is a great plugin, but the company still isn't ideal.

Evan Evans

@Peter Alexander said:

This is untrue. Check out Kontakt 1.5.

Well, Kontakt, if you have it in your AudioUnits folder, as it turns out, limits you to only loading 10,240 samples. I know this because I am a "special" someone running a "special" version of Logic which allows me to open 16,384 files. So right off the bat, Kontakt is already doing detrimental things to Emagic's software.

And you have to despise that darn CD authorization that keeps popping up every month. Native Instruments. errr.

Anyway, it is a great plugin, but the company still isn't ideal.

Evan Evans

NI is one of the most responsive companies in this field. The new 1.5 works well in DP. Now we get to Logic and we have implementation issues. We had implementation issues with VSTi before the Apple purchase because it was implemented poorly. And I know this because I talked with audio card manufacturers who reviewed with me the common problems they had with Emagic, among them, basic cooperation so that their audio product could be ready the day the newest Logic version shipped. And how did Logic tech support handle it when there were issues with audio cards and drivers? "It's THEIR fault."

Cooperation. Relationship. Don't pick on the Florian brothers. Call Steve.

Very good. Thanks for clarifying that Peter.

[:)]

Evan Evans

@evanevans said:

Very good. Thanks for clarifying that Peter.

[:)]

Evan Evans

Thanks, Evan. Actually, I'm being quite serious about the VSTi implementation. As an example, we took a VSTi plugin for synth and installed it in both Cubase 32 5.0 and Logic 4.6. Going down the list of sounds from 1-64, from one program to the next, they were totally different sounding. It was clearly poor software implementation.

With the current situation you bring up - the audio unit definition descrbed by Apple was followed to the letter by MOTU in DP. However, Emagic changed the spec, which is why another program using the Kompakt player wasn't working in DP correctly. Since the release of Kontatk 1.5, that's been corrected. The issue is that a spec for the whole platform which everyone was to follow for uniformity and ease in implementation was changed, and who knew about it other than those who changed it?

Change is the order of the day. But by not telling others working to that standard, look what it cost several companies to correct and how that impacted you personally.

This story in various parts is presented on another forum so you can check for yourself.

Peter,
Yes, thanks – I’d love to see a copy of your tutorial. Although a Logic novice, I am pretty good with it after having spent so many nights with the manual (I just prefer DP’s workflow, layout, look and feel). I really have no interest in debating anyone over DP vs. Logic. All I care about is VSL and how I can use it most efficiently; if I have to switch to Logic to do that, I will). I’m even toying with the idea of starting my upcoming project in Logic; diving in headfirst sometimes is the only way to become quick with something. The VSL legato function is so incredible to me, that it may just cause me to switch platforms. Reading between the lines of various posts, here I have the feeling that a Kontakt version of VSL would be a long ways off– and I can’t wait for that.

@Gary Lionelli said:

Peter,
Yes, thanks – I’d love to see a copy of your tutorial. Although a Logic novice, I am pretty good with it after having spent so many nights with the manual (I just prefer DP’s workflow, layout, look and feel). I really have no interest in debating anyone over DP vs. Logic. All I care about is VSL and how I can use it most efficiently; if I have to switch to Logic to do that, I will). I’m even toying with the idea of starting my upcoming project in Logic; diving in headfirst sometimes is the only way to become quick with something. The VSL legato function is so incredible to me, that it may just cause me to switch platforms. Reading between the lines of various posts, here I have the feeling that a Kontakt version of VSL would be a long ways off– and I can’t wait for that.

If you learn Logic in a procedural manner, it's very quick. You'll be surprised as to how Performer-like it is. With the transport, it's also incredibly quick to set up multiple time signatures, faster than any other program.

What is mindbinding, and I say this coming from Performer to Logic, is how the editing is implemented. You have to think differently, whereas, CUbase is more Performer-like for its editing.

Send me your address and I'll send you a CD. It's 30-35 lessons.

Peter

Peter,
That's really great of you -- very much appreciate it! I will email my info to you.