This is an interesting topic, and I agree with that about Simon's demo, as well as the others - they have a great, wide-ranging sound. It is a large question but I think one key is getting each instrument to play in a natural-sounding way - with a consistent and realistic dynamic range being very important. And they must be related to each other realistically. In other words, not to have a solo flute with a wider range of dynamics than a trombone section, etc. I've noticed on my own attempts that it is very easy to distort the natural balances because of the multiply recorded nature of samples - first sampled, then "re-recorded" over and over again in the performances, mixing, etc. But if you can get each instrument to sound naturally balanced within itself and without, then, because the VSL is so detailed and accurate, it becomes more a matter of orchestration, though that is a whole art form in itself.

What I'm trying to do is get to the stage of a good sound being ONLY a matter of orchestration. So that if the music sounds bad, it is purely because I did not do a good job on musical grounds, rather than technical...

I guess that the instruments are all so cleanly recorded that a flute at 0 dB is just as loud as the 14-part violin section at 0 dB. Maybe what I need to do is set some realistic volumes such that when I'm noodling around with the orchestra sound trying to compose my first thought is "wow, what a powerful orchestra" and not "Why are my violins so weak?".

So, maybe it *IS* volume after all. Heh heh.

(i seem to think there's also a talent component is there somewhere, too...) [[:)]]

thanks for the advice. I realize that it's a moving target, but I would like to get a palette of sounds so that I can 'paint' the music instead of trying to re-create my favorite sounds every time. I guess that's what experience is, isn't it? [[:)]]

-d-

Also, I think Simon's mixes sound big because they are more wet (without a long tale, though) than most others. If you could mute the verb then it would sound like the orchestra is pressed in a small dry room.

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Alex Cremers

@Alexcremers said:

Also, I think Simon's mixes sound big because they are more wet (without a long tale, though) than most others. If you could mute the verb then it would sound like the orchestra is pressed in a small dry room.

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Alex Cremers

I think this is an answer that I've been looking for as well -- but can you explain exactly how you would make a wet sound without a long reverb tail? I don't understand that part.... can you elaborate?

thanks!

Shorten the reverb tail and turn up the reverb!

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Shorten the reverb tail and turn up the reverb!

I'm afraid that's not much help without describing the settings you're using! They only way I know to create more reverb is to create a larger hall by using a longer reverb time. Can you be specific about which settings you would adjust to get a big reverb with a short decay?

Good thread here.

I just bought my VSL First Ed. and am curious as well about how to get that big brass sound used in Simon's demo.

What reverb are you guys using? I've dabbled with SIR but I get a weird echo everytime I use it? I've tweaked and tweaked, and still get an echo. What am I doing wrong? Is there a better reverb out there for the PC?

Thanks.

Will

Will,

SIR is "close to real-time" - it has about 16000 samples latency (i.e. the echo you hear).

Solution one would be to use an up-to-date audio-workstation like Nuendo with full latency compensation;

Solution two is to send the "dry" signals to a delayed group-channel with the effect set to the according value, mixing dry (the instrumenst) and wet (the reverb) _after_ this group.

SOlution three is to record the reverb to an audio track and to move it to "the left".

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Just to ask a question which wont help at all.....

You mentioned that you had a score of the Patriot...

I would love to study that score - how can i go about seeing a copy of that, or where can i buy it from ?

David T

I think Simon mainly uses a Lexicon MPX 1. I have one too but prefer my Roland R-880. I think the trick is not to hear the reverb. Try creating a verb that acts almost like ambience. Use a small hall instead of a big one. Set the predelay at 20-24ms or shorter. Reverb time should be no more than 1.80s. What's important if you want to use much reverb but you don't want to drown your sounds is to damp and filter the reverb otherwise it can get too bright or metalish (depends on your reverb generator) If you have darkened your tail (tale, haha) to your taste, you can easily make it longer again (if you should want to). I also go easy on early reflections. If you can adjust its level, try 100%, then 50% and even 0% to see what you like best. Then pan the brass in the same way they're positioned in a real orchestra. French Horns at between 10.00 and 11.00 o'clock, trumpets at 13.00 o'clock, trombones at 14.00 o'clock and tuba between 14.00 and 15.00 o'clock.

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Alex Cremers

Dietz,

Thanks for the info on SIR. Is SIR the only good reverb out there for the PC?

Will

No, just one of the few (close-to-) real-time Convolution Reverb Engines - with the big "advantage" that it's Shareware, up to now.

Another one comes from Magix' Samplitude/Sequioa, and there are even more around the corner.

That said, there is still enough use for synthetic (opposed to "sampled") reverbs. PC-based options encompass freeware like the "Ambience" VST-Plugin, the commercial plugins like the one from Spin Audio (a DX-plug, AFAIR), and of course hardware-dependent "powered" plugs from UAD and TC Electronic.

HTH,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@David T said:

Just to ask a question which wont help at all.....

You mentioned that you had a score of the Patriot...

I would love to study that score - how can i go about seeing a copy of that, or where can i buy it from ?

David T

Check out Peter Alexander's site:
http://www.alexuniv.com/filmscoring/index.shtml

If you haven't been there yet, it'll make you drool.

Good luck!
-Denny-

@Alexcremers said:

I think Simon mainly uses a Lexicon MPX 1. I have one too but prefer my Roland R-880. I think the trick is not to hear the reverb. Try creating a verb that acts almost like ambience. Use a small hall instead of a big one. Set the predelay at 20-24ms or shorter. Reverb time should be no more than 1.80s. What's important if you want to use much reverb but you don't want to drown your sounds is to damp and filter the reverb otherwise it can get too bright or metalish (depends on your reverb generator) If you have darkened your tail (tale, haha) to your taste, you can easily make it longer again (if you should want to). I also go easy on early reflections. If you can adjust its level, try 100%, then 50% and even 0% to see what you like best. Then pan the brass in the same way they're positioned in a real orchestra. French Horns at between 10.00 and 11.00 o'clock, trumpets at 13.00 o'clock, trombones at 14.00 o'clock and tuba between 14.00 and 15.00 o'clock.

-----------------
Alex Cremers

Great post Alex - thanks a ton!! I use the Roland SRV-330 and really enjoy it but your tweaks suggested above could improve it even more.

Rob

Hey Bluedane.

Alex is right that without the verb it would sound very weird. Maybe I could record a portion of Traveller without it - I am sure it would sound extremely bad[:)] But hey, that's why we have reverb. You don't set an orchestra to play in a totally dead room either, for the same reason. I can't help you much as to how to make it sound big, but I can say that I generally use two presets, one for strings, percussion, harp (and possibly woodwinds), and another for brass - thats how my general routing is when I compose. I record a few more takes often when I mix it down in the end, but I don't do each and every instrument on its own. I would always do stuff like snare drums and cymbals on their own though, to get a lot of distance in the sound which I don't apply to many other instruments. The cold facts from my Lexicon MPX1 which I use on strings, percussion, harp, woodwinds are (these parameters may vary on your unit, so it's prolly not a big help): Size 34 meters, diffusion 100%, predelay 6ms, decay 2.13s, high-cut 1.6khz, shape 51, spread 24. On the MPX500 they are Decay 1.65s, HF rolloff 3.1khz, predelay 30ms, high-cut 4khz, diffusion 75%, size 50m., attack 10.

If you have the same unit(s) you could try these numbers. Then you have to find out the wet/dry ratio by using your ears.

I also used the Realverb Pro on the UAD-1 DSP card on "The Traveller" and the "Danny's Nightmare" though - for woodwinds and trumpets, and on some of the percussion.

But yes, it's not all because of the reverb - balancing, expression, dynamics and panning are the most important aspects in reaching higher realism.

As for "the big brass sound" I assume you're mainly referring to the 2nd part of "The Traveller" - here it's mostly orchestration, since I double trombones with horns - and trumpets, even in the low registers, which creates that sound.

It's good to hear - I need to go back and work on that. So, it sounds like you're saying "make it as real as possible" - pan, relative volumes, concert-hall type reverb, etc.

I've actually been meaning to tell you - "The Traveller" rocks (well, in an awesome, orchestal kind-of way.) =) It is probably what convinced me to buy VSL, so if anybody asks over in Vienna, they got at least one (I'm sure more) customer from you. Really incredible job.

-denny-

Yes, we ask. :-]

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library