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  3. Instruments in Unison

  • Instruments in Unison

    P
    P
    I remember asking this awhile back but with new libraries coming out I thought I might revive the topic:

    What sort of plans do you have for addressing the same instruments in unison? I think a huge failing of every major sample library thus far is that they include solo samples, and 3 or 4-instrument samples (3 or 4 of the same instrument playing the same note), but quite often I want to have 2 instruments or 3 instruments playing the note when the library only offers me 1 or 4. French horns are a classic example of this. Sometimes I want the sound of exactly two french horns playing mp but I can almost never get thsi sound in any commercial library.

    Ideally, what I would want is for the plugin to recognize when I have two identical notes being played by the identical instrument and automatically use the sample from two instruments instead of layering two identical waves on top of each other (which often sounds very bad). But at the very least, the ability to choose a sample of 1, 2, 3, or 4 instruments playing in unison would be very nice. Alternatively, if you had three samples of each instrument playing every note, then this could be replicated by myself by just layering the different variations on top of each other. In fact, maybe that would be ideal. Then when I actually want three trumpets in unision, I'll just write that in the sequencer.

    Thoughts? Thanks.
  • S
    S
    "Then when I actually want three trumpets in unision, I'll just write that in the sequencer. "


    This would be FANTASTIC! I would love to set up a full orchestra score and have all the trumpet staves work together (just as you would have three performers, not one performer tripled). I hate having to delete notes out of the score when instruments double, just so it sounds right. And the multiple unison patches don't really get the job done either... everytime you have a single note played in unison, you have to delete notes, switch instruments and then change it all back again.

    I would love to see a future update include patches like Flute 2, Clarinet 2 and 3, etc. etc.


    -Dave
  • K
    K
    You´re totally right and I think you speak for most VSL users. Having two or three individual "players" of the same instrument, would make it much easier to handle.
    Even more important for me are the violins. Very often, 1st and 2nd violins go unison to introduce a big theme for instance. Mostly I let the violas play unison with the 1st violins wich is actually weird, but it was the only satisfying solution.
    - Kuno -
  • N
    N
    I brought this up many months ago when the recordings for WW ensembles was being planned. I was of the opinion that I would prefer 2 player "ensembles" instead of 3. Herb said this would be a problem because it is more difficult for the players to play in tune with each other this way. Since then I have learned that pretty much every instrument is going to have an alternate (player 2) set of samples. In the pro edition this is already the case with the flute. I think in many cases this second set of samples will be a similar variation of the same instrument: Eb clarinet in addition to Bb, or double horn in addition to Vienese Horn.

    So, I think we're going to be well cared for. I haven't heard if there are any plans for a tutti violins (Violin I and II together) set of samples. Presumably you could layer the existing violins with the half-section Violins that will be released in the Cube and get close to the same effect.
  • W
    W
    This is a very good topic because it is extremely important in actual orchestration. The doublings you use completely change the musical expression, and yet most sample libraries act as if "well, you can use a solo instrument or an ensemble, what"s the difference?"

    Of course the VSL does not, but I think one priority for them is to have a complete second violin section that can go into unison or diverge at the composer's will, on any and all articulations. Also what Peter is talking about, I have had the exact same situation of needing two horns, probably because this is commonplace in orchestration - dropping out the 3rd and 4th and having first and second take a unison line (or 1st and 3rd if you use that somewhat pointless tradtion).

    This seems to get back to something I was talking about in another thread, about how having more variants is in some ways more important than having more instruments. Because when you have an actual orchestra at your disposal, you have an infinite number of variations. I think this is another "step forward" ahead of any other sample library that the VSL should plunge into.
  • E
    E
    I'm happy to read that Herb and the team are planning, in the long run, to have all the second chairs sampled but concerning the difficulty to sample two players together, well, I have my doubts. Aren't orchestral WW players acustomed to play in real life with one another? Often times when I sit in a concert hall and I hear a very good first oboe player shining through the orchestra in passages where it is exposed with the second chair oboe, I know that the second oboe is extremely good beacause he/she blends and listen so carefully to the first chair that the musical idea expressed there is well balanced and flawless. The same applies to french horns and all of us know of some favorite passages of the orchestral litterature where such delightful moments occur.

    So, ive us good second chairs samples by themselves and then sampled togheter. It is imperative!

    Marc.
  • P
    P
    Sorry to take so long to get back into the conversation but I was away for the last two weeks. [:)]

    The only difficulty I could see in using separate samples of different players is that players playing in unison are each going to listen to each other to match the same quality of sound (pitch being one of the factors, but not the only one), so recording two oboes separately and layering them, for example, is not going to sound the same as recording two oboes playing together.

    Does anyone else (perhaps more experienced orchestra players) see that as an issue?

    So I still think the ideal solution would be to record 1, 2, 3, and 4 instruments playing in unison, and have smart software which recognizes when you have doubled notes on the same instrument and play the appropriate sample (with the ability to override, of course). Of course Gigastudio is unable to do something like that in its current form, but I think the performance tool could certainly be used for this purpose, or the evenual VST plugin should they make one.