I resemble that remark. [6]

I'll leave it at that for now, please don't get me going.

@Craig Sharmat said:

I resemble that remark. [6]

I'll leave it at that for now, please don't get me going.

Me, too.

@duoartc said:

Thanks again King for your unbiassed opinion.

Can I ask though, how QLSO deals with repetitions compared to Vienna (strings in particular)? It obviously doesn't have the repetition performances that VSL does, but does have according to EW, auto sample switching to get over the machine gun. As you have both libraries, can you elaborate on this aspect and maybe comment on its effectiveness compared to the alternating tool in VSL with the variation samples in the Cube. My main interest is with the strings.

It would be an attractive option to buy VSL in complete orchestral sections which included the repetition and legato tools and the articulations to go with them, with the standard samples as in the cube/pro editions. Maybe that's a future option - it would certainly appeal to many more buyers IMHO.

Any comment would be much appreciated.

Craig

Since this is the VSL forum, your question would be more appropriately addressed at Northern Sounds in the EastWest Forum. You could also post this question in the main sample libraries forum.

However, as I've stated on both forums, and in this thread, the implementation of both libraries is totally different. If these were two GigaStudio libraries, then we could really evaluate them on an equal plane. But, one library operates through the Kompakt engine with a proprietary "effects" implementation, while VSL operates largely with GigaStudio and a separate version for Logic/EXS24 and has effects applied with non-proprietary methods.. Neither implementation is directly comparable to the other.

Peter Alexander
peter@truespec.com
www.truespec.com
310-559-3779

I have both libraries and have spent a lot of time this week comparing them. I really like both of them and they each provide what the other is missing in my opinion. Together just about anything is possible. For example, as King mentioned, the best sound I've ever heard for strings is the Vienna pleg samples layered with QLSO. The Vienna performance set for me is unmatched, but QLSO has absolutely captured how instruments can soar. The hall itself is an instrument, and it is outstanding. Like the rest of you here, I'm waiting for MIR. What will be benefical now is for all of us to start posting music. This is all very subjective. I will do that soon.

Colin

to clarify

Kompakt is a VST,

audio plug in FX can be proprietary or third party.

MIDI tools however are a different story. This does NOT mean that 3rd party Tools cant be developed or used.

Its similar to the was VSL can be imported into Kontakt and the performance tool can be used that way. Or if someone were to develop a MFX tool set, or Maple Tool FX.

As well Kompakt can run standalone, and can be routed simarly to gigastudio.

I cant directly state things about VSL when asked about comparing them. Even if I dont mention anything about QLSO. If its in reply it will look like I'm promoting VSL in favor of QLSO no matter which I prefer for the specific task in question.

All I can say is look at the specifics in terms of technical nature and there are some obvious points that come through, accross both libraries. Some in favor of one some in favor of the other.

Its stupid anyway, listen to the demos, and ask the companies to show you specific things you're looking for in short or new demos. They both have access to creating these for you, if they dont (give it time, and hope for atleast a response), then take it as either, they aren't interested in showing you, or the library cant do it, or cant do it well. ask for specifics and point to recordings that show what you're looking for.

Peter Alexander wrote:

@Another User said:

[...] Since this is the VSL forum, your question would be more appropriately addressed at Northern Sounds in the EastWest Forum. You could also post this question in the main sample libraries forum. [...]

.. or better _not_ post your question on the Northern Sounds forum ... they don't seem to like topics like this these days over there ... 8-] ... for some reason someone at EW seems to hunt down anxiuosly any demured opinion about his product ... go figure.

***

My completely biased and unbalanced opinion: the QLSO seems to be a well recorded, quite big, conventional, "old school" sampling library, which gives you a certain amount of possibilities, tells you how you have to sound and what you will be able to do musically. - The Vienna Symphonic Library is the Next Generation of sampling, in respect of quality, size, playability (!), flexibilty, organization, and update policy - the whole underlying concept is new, or different at least. The user decides how he/she will sound, while pushing the limits of musical options far beyond the know possibilities of virtual orchestration.

In a nutshell: As far as we know, QLSO has nothing to offer which comes even close to the creative and sonic possibilites of our real-time Performance Tools. Sample switching is just a faint idea of the complex patterns you may achieve by using the Repetition Tool, for example. - And we still have to see how they compare on a pure technical level.

Apart from all that: Our Library is just a part of a much bigger, comprehensive project, so expect more to come during the next months and years [6]


/Dietz (expressing his private opinion in a politically incorrect mood - but I'm fed up with the lukewarm "oh, they are both great"-postings. I leave that for more settled characters [;)] ..)

@KingIdiot said:

[...] I cant directly state things about VSL when asked about comparing them. Even if I dont mention anything about QLSO. [...]

Pretty sad situation for an adult, professional man in a free country, isn't it? For me, these politics say more about a company than any of the negative opinions they're obviously trying to supress.

/Dietz (still private)

@KingIdiot said:

Its stupid anyway, listen to the demos, and ask the companies to show you specific things you're looking for in short or new demos.

Hmmm.....again For what are demos good in this case [*-)]: Good sounding demos with relative poor libraries did already exist years ago. Sorry, I may be wrong, but if I am considering buying a library, before making the step , I listen to demos and read the instrument-, articulation list, because to I want to know if I will be able to use it. But probably I am stupid..... [:D]

VSL has a whole list of demos in very different music styles and sounding all different. EQ....has hired some of the same composers and all demos sound the same and are the same kind of music. with identical effects. I do understand that some poeple wants, probably for some commercial reasons, to stay in good terms with everybody, but since this is not the case for me [8-)] I do write exactly what I do think, and is it is only worth what you want to consider it [:P]

Iwan

well what I'm talking about are specific demos.

If YOU ask for them, then you'll get to hear exactly what you want to hear. Some people wont ever use the waterphone in VSL so having the 8 billion gigabytes of samples wont matter to them. To me its a great thing to have because its inspiring on a compositional level. To others it's wasted space and wasted time.

Demos are the only way for people who dont ahve the library to actually HEAR these articulations and realize if they'll be useful for their own particular needs. Listening to demo compositions is one thing, but listening to specific compositions showing particular articulations/sounds/concepts/etc is another. And THATS what I'm telling user's to ask for. 7 quick demos against the multitude of VSL demos really doesn't show how QLSO can be used. There will most likely be more shared, by both users and possibly more by the company. Its stupid right now to compare demo for demo. In fact its ignorant. These libraries are two different animals. There's no "better" one because they really shouldn't be compared.

If I split myself into two different people with distinct needs, each one of those people will prefer one library over the other. Its fact. It depends on your need as a composer. Some need Hollywood sound out of the box and dont need endless amounts of choices for articulations performance aspects, some need the choices of articulations and want to be inspired by the suite of exotic playing styles, some dont care for the Hollywood sound, some need bombastic and "huge".

The above points are blatent generalizations, since we all know that specific cues will sound different with different libs, some better some worse, then you factor in the skill of the particular MIDI mockup artist and the equation goes on and on until every nuance is created from the mesh of things that make up the equation, not just one aspect.

So yah its stupid to compare. Use what you got, and get what you "need", dont get something based on other peoples impressions, since its going to be based on what they need as a composer.

Written facts will only take you so far, so defintiely ask for specific demos and specific styles. If you dont get them, dont buy the damn thing, something else will come down the pike or be updated, or advanced, or whatever. Push these companies to work more on showing us what the libs can/can't do, instead of just speaking about them. Words are useless here, its music and performance we're talking about.

and Dietz, you're going to get me into trouble here [;)] Its more of a self imposed silence BTW, yes I'm under NDA, and there is public information I could discuss, its just that too many developers and distributers (not just EW) seem to think that my opinion matters much more than a user's own, so that I have some sort of influence..... welcome to the dark side, its quite frustrating that they dont care when I say something nice (well competing developers do). Anyhow, its gotten me to give up on this crap.

Any company thats invested much $$$ into a product will be overly paranoid about things. Its honestly stupid, too many developers seem to have a divide and conquer mentality, or struggle to be "the best". I invloved myself with developers for the sole fact of helping end users (well, and getting free stuff). Many developers believe "their way" is the "right way". When in all honesty there is no "right way" for everyone in the world.

anyhow, this has been hashed out to ends on NS, lets leave it alone. We should all go back to using AO [:P] or better yet the roland Orch board 1

[We should all go back to using AO or better yet the roland Orch board 1/quote]

sorry, quoting is a skill I still have to learn, but:

"We should all go back to using AO or better yet the roland Orch board 1"

Yep - as it happened, my FW drive with most of my samples disappeared from the Desktop this week, and as i had a deadline I was really happy to power up my E4, S760, Proteus 2 and JV2080....I had fun and it all sounded pretty good to me!


Nigel

VSL can sound just as hollywood as EWQLSO. EWQLSO has that nice ambience built in that can make it sound filmish but somehting it lacks is real legato which seems to be in film music! I was originally hoping to buy EWQLSO but the strings make or break a library for me and their strings sounded yick yack yucky. Although the basses seemed to sound nice. I do not like how insane they have gotten over their library. I think there is a big difference between Herb and the EWQLSO guys, Herb seems like a great cool guy that let's people freely talk about his library while at the EWQLSO forum it isn't uncommon to have your thread deleted because it was slightly negative towards the library. EWQLSO sounds like really great samples, VSL can be mistaken for a real orchestra IMO.

@KingIdiot said:

[...]
and Dietz, you're going to get me into trouble here [...]
Any company thats invested much $$$ into a product will be overly paranoid about things. [...]

Sorry, Ashif, it wasn't my intention to put yo under pressure.

OTOH - as a matter of fact, I'm sure that _we_ invested enough Euros here in Vienna to qualify for the above statement money-wise - nevertheless I have yet to encounter the paranoid people in this company ...

It's not only a question of style. It's a question of credibilty. Paranoia is neither a business modell, nor a communication concept, nor is it particulary creative. Finally, the success of the paranoid depend solely on those who are willing to get impressed by the scare mongers.

/Dietz (very private :-] ...)

@KingIdiot said:

and Dietz, you're going to get me into trouble here

Sorry, Ashif, only you can get you into trouble by what you choose to say and do. Dietz has nothing to do with it.

peter,

wrong and you know it. I can say something, and someone can say something that points out things I never intended and in that respect I will get in trouble for something that *SOMEONE ELSE* says,

legal troubles and just plain issues with people are both "trouble" in my book.

but anyway it was a joke

I find it amusing that people are under orders to keep quiet about a sample library. What's the punishment? Flogging? Or maybe they'll take away your computers? (That would be worse.)

Right there is a major difference - ever since the beginning everyone has been encouraged by the VSL company to talk (sometimes to the point of obsession) about the library. It has nothing to hide. Again, that is this company's emphasis upon music and composing rather than business. Though they are obviously doing both well.

Also, my reaction is the same as Dietz and Iwan - I heard the demos and saw their listings on EW and it is like an old-fashioned sample library with single note/articulation samples - just more of them than Miroslav or Siedlaczek or what have you. There is no emphasis on the absolutely crucial difference that the VSL has - performance elements incorporated at the most basic level. That is why I immediately lost interest in the EW library. Also, the ambiance of the concert hall is no better than convolution reverb (at least the one I'm using - Acoustic Mirror) and has none of the radical flexibility of being able to change the entire nature of the sounding space. So that is a non-feature for me on the EW library. I wouldn't use it anyway.

Though if you're just looking to expand your raw number of samples, it's always good to get more, especially if you're a millionaire.

P.S. King - could you spare me a couple bucks? I'm kind of tapped out after buying the First Edition.

@William said:

I find it amusing that people are under orders to keep quiet about a sample library.

With software, a beta tester is a kind of "second engineer" who is participating in the R&D of a product. While developing that library, or software program, you're under non-disclosure until the final product is released and on the market. And those non-disclosure terms vary from one company to the next. There are also written agreements that the OEM may require signing before work begins. In this case, the beta tester has a contractual obligation to say nothing.

At this level, beta testing has nothing to do with national security, but it has everything to do with corporate security. Millions are being invested in these libraries. And a beta tester, whether under written contract or personal guarantee, is there to help make the library a success, not to sink it.

Additionally, beta testers come with all levels of background.

On our LA team for VSL, half the team was balanced with programmers/instrumentalists/composers who could read music, and knew the orchestral literature. The other half were composers who were under deadline and knew little about programming, and so needed to rely on the final result without being pushed to have to know how to work the GS Edit.

Was it that they weren't smart enough to figure out GS Edit or to lazy to do it (as some have suggested)? No, it's that a large part of professional composers who use these libraries put their emphasis on music and composition first and bring in a tech to help with the rest.

And so half our team represented that market position.

Another consideration was that everyone on our LA team had scoring stage experience and knew what it meant to be under fire and to get the job done. Anyone of the team who was a programmer, understood how to program under those conditions. We didn't look for what would be "cool" but what would be effective for the library under "on demand" expectations.

Additionally, the kind of projects our team did varied greatly. They ranged from weekly TV to Warner Bros. cartoons, to Biblical epics. And so the library was tested at a variety of levels.

However, our input was directed to THE team leader - Herb. Herb is a concert cellist with plenty of onstage experience. He's a composer and a programmer. So when Herb first presented his vision to us, we knew what he was trying to accomplish and how to support him in it. When we didn't understand, we wrote and asked questions.

Do I as one of the beta testers really need to comment on it? In VSL's case, no, not really. The primary demos are done by Herb, the Captain of the ship. The Captain has taken prime responsibility for the success of the mission. And the Captain has executed that responsibility by creating demos that show off the individual instruments, individual ensemble groups, etc., so you can clearly hear for yourself what the library is capable of doing.

Finally, I want to make this point, which several of us on our team have spoken about individually. Many of us because of expertise at a variety of levels, are asked to beta test other libraries. It's therefore necessary for we as individuals to maintain some level of confidentiality, especially on a public forum. We call this trust.

In the end, however, a beta tester in music is akin to the composer creating for the director. We work to support a vision that has capital investment behind it. Our duty and our job is to support that vision and as best as possible make it successful.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the library stands on its strength.

Two weeks ago, my wife Caroline and I were coming home from church one evening. On the classical station was a piece by Mozart written for flute, solo violin and solo cello. In listening, we both realized (Caroline's an excellent composer, too) what a great blessing it was to have a library like VSL where if we wanted, we could create our own works for flute, solo violin and solo cello because of the broad level of articulations available to us from one library which also sounds fantastic!

So, William, please don't take this as any kind of assault on your post. I appreciated all your good words. But because this theme has come up on two different forums, I wanted to clearly set forth the philosophy that many us have who help contribute to wonderful libraries like VSL.

Peter,

I don't like your attitude. It is conceited and superior. I don't appreciate being treated like an ignoramus to be enlightened. I may not have your important salaried position in a big company but I'm a serious composer, and what I wrote is my honest reaction to corporate bullshit.

William

@William said:

Peter,

I don't like your attitude. It is conceited and superior. I don't appreciate being treated like an ignoramus to be enlightened. I may not have your important salaried position in a big company but I'm a serious composer, and what I wrote is my honest reaction to corporate bullshit.

William

OK.BTW I don't have a "salaried position" in a big company. I run my own company, Alexander University Inc., of which Truespec Systems is a division, along with Alexander Publishing, our training division, and Biblestory.NET, our production arm, for whom I produce and compose original works. Our first major work is David & Goliath Episode 1, Revenge of The Fallen Ones which releases in 2004, follow by Mary & Joseph: The Untold Story, and many others.

I'm also a serious composer who's also revised the Rimsky-Korsakov book, Gradus ad parnassum by Fux (called Counterpoint by Fux), written a harmony series (Applied Professional Harmony). prepared a three-semester writing for strings course, and more than 50 other works.

I'm both fortunate and blessed that God allowed me to have a career in advertising and business before coming back to music (Berklee 1975) because this and His grace has allowed me to sustain myself while coming back from being re-paralyzed from a condition called post-polio syndrome, during which time I've had to learn to walk again, hold a pencil again to write music, play piano again, all from scratch. To get back to where I am required serious work and conquering pain levels I can barely begin to describe.

I am neither conceited nor superior but I am goal oriented, direct, to the point and competent in what I do. I am also loyal, supportive and a good friend. I operate between crutches and a whellchair. I do not quit and I play to win. I don't complain. I get the job done.

If that makes me appear superior and conceited, my humble apologies.

I just want to jump in to describe how VSL handles beta testing and NDA issues.

After releasing our First Edition the beta testers asked me what they are allowed to communicate to the public now. To be honest, I was surprised about this question, now I understand it a little bit better. It seems that different companies handle this in different ways.

I told our betateam that they should simply share their thoughts - without any restriction, that's all.

best wishes
Herb