Also, prefferably nothing TOO pricy...

Will

@willmusser said:

Hey guys,

Awesome, thanks again for the comments.... One thing that I've been noticing some people saying is that the VSL library is abit 'raw' sounding. Meaning you have to apply different effects and lots of reverb to get the samples to sound realistic and rich in ambience? True or false? [*-)]

Will

Will, I want to respond to this from a different direction. For the moment, we'll put aside QLSO.

Starting with the Roland library through Miroslav Vitous (you might not have heard of him, but we "old guys" have his samples), the early E-MU library, Advanced Orchestra, Garritan Orchestral Strings, Sonic Implants Symphonic Strings, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings, Dan Dean Solo series, and now Vienna, have all been recorded "dry," meaning no room ambience or reverb was recorded with the sample. Some of these libraries, however, did and do have portions that were recorded with the ambient sound of the room (Dan Dean Brass Ensembles is one example). But for the most part, they are dry.

This means that ALL sample libraries from the past to the present, including Vienna, need reverb.

It's just no more complicated then that.

For all these libraries, there's three ways to apply reverb:

1. In the computer using the reverb with Cubase, a DSP card like the TC Works Powercore, a separate effects collection like the Waves Native Gold Bundle.

2. An external hardware reverb unit.

3. An impulse. Oversimplified, the impulse is the sound of a room that's been recorded. Depending on the program you're recording in, you apply the impulse to the recorded .wav file(s), and in this case, the orchestra, is now sounding in that room.

What do you use? Well, you use the same reverb all the rest of us used when we first started - the one you have. Later on when you get more money, look at the ones I listed, and others like Altiverb, etc. which are very popular.

Another development is that Samplitude on the PC has a real time room simulator which uses impulses. There are a number available with Samplitude and I understand from other sources.

So you have lots of options. But for now, if you get VSL, work with what you have. There are several of us here who are Cubase users whom I sure will help you with your questions as we have already.

So to summarize. Is VSL raw? No, like all the other libraries, it's recorded dry and needs reverb.

Peter

What Peter says, about covers it. You should take into consideration that having one computer with giga and and cubase and a impulse or good verb without something like power core or the UAD card will probably really tax that computer. At that point a 2nd computer becomes a good option. An external verb places no xtra tow on a computer so it's a consideration. Just giving you info to think about.

Sharmy
(My handle seems to be following me 8-}

post 100

holy....

whats your definition of "recorded wet" peter?


Will,

Some libraries can get away with less reverb than VSL yes, but some cant be as flexible as VSL in terms of FX usage. VSL is the only library I have that has a very "ambiguous" sound. Its not "close mic'd" you can obvioulsy hear the "space" between the mics and the instruments in the recordings, but its not at all drenched in room ambience.

VSL is also all recorded in stereo, with "center" placement. Allowing you to place the instrument "wherever" you want. Generally, in other libs, I find this to be problematic because you end up haveing to collapse room frequencies and such that are in the recordings, but with VSL you dont have much or any of that. The Silent stage takes care of room resonances bieng part of the problem, and general "early reflections" that can hinder some "panning" techniques.

VSL is recorded like no other library. I'll tell you that. Its plain and simple that they are thinking this out in a "big picture" sort of way. You can see it starting to come together with the announcement of MIR. There's jsut ongoing development for days, so I have a feeling that VSL will be a strong tool for MANY years to come, but still stay as flexible as it has been since day one.

As for reverbs to use. Impulses are the flavor of the day for me, and they are great. Just make sure you get good ones, and learn to EQ still [[[:)]]]

Convolution has its drawbacks too tho. Sound quality is highly dependant on the impulse itself, which is determined by a multitude of things. Also "placement" options are difficult, if not dtrimental to the effect (if you dont have MIR [;)] )

Other good ideas are to get a good hardware unit. Just about all the softreverbs are problematic for orchestral music if you ask me. This doesn't include convolvers (impulses).

Stay the heck away from NFX1 for anything more than "ideas"

Peter's right all libraries can benefit from reverb. I dont agree that all of them NEED reverb tho. Specific cues may, and what specific people want to acheive in terms of sound may require reverb, but alot of the libs recorded in bigger rooms/halls are recorded hoping that the room would be reason enough to use less or no reverb at all to get the sound they were after.

Like Sharmy said, VSL was designed to be used with reverb, which is probably why it works well with reverbs [[[:)]]] No "jumpy room", and no "room within a room" sound when using lots of early reflections.

anywho....

if you buy VSL you will have some great tools. You may get caught up in the QLSO demo hype and feel disappointed you didn't wait, but I can assure you that VSL is a great product and worth the $$$

Also in the end, think about what it is you want and need. Just because VSL is great and flexible, it may not be exactly what you want. I wish people would jsut buy the lib because its awesome and inspiring and I personally would never be able to live without the feeling I get playing some of these instruments, still for people who are "ambience nuts" it just may ruin your experience with VSL when you get it, and then listen to QLSO demos, which no doubt will have a great "out of the box" room sound.



and after that long diatribe, my advice is, win the lottery and get both, as well as other libs, and about 48 computers, and each one loaded with everything, and a huge template that is programmed with bnk/prg changes so all you have to do is "select the right patch" you want for each instrument.

It can be done, and if I had the money I'd do it [[[:)]]]

I guess I'll add my own humble comment to the other great responses on this thread. ..

This library is not even remotely like any other I've used, and I've used most all of the serious sample libraries. This is not because of mere technical recording quality - anybody can do that nowadays if they have enough money. It is really because of the knowledge of music that lies behind everything done technically. The most spectacular example of this to me is the legato, which really fulfills Arthur C. Clarke's dictum that "sufficiently advanced techonology is indistinguishable from magic."

Also the repetition tool which I at first rejected because I didn't understand it but now am really excited about. The other recent libraires are all just refinements of the same old basic idea - chromatic multi dynamic sampling of individual notes. Quantum Leap is interesting but seems right now to be merely another, more refined example of the same old approach. The VSL is radically different because instead of just accurate note recordings it tries above all to capture musical expressions that can be used in any way the composer imagines.

Thanks, William, that's about how I'd put it.

(... an another "thank you!" for quoting A.C.Clarke :-] ...)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

I don't agree with Peter on using what one got already (for final mixing, sketching/ideas might be ok with that NFX). I think you should get this:

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html">http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html

This is a free plugin, you should also check the links-section there for sites with free impulses. Overall I think you are much better off with this than NFX, besides it might take some more power.

@PolarBear said:

I don't agree with Peter on using what one got already (for final mixing, sketching/ideas might be ok with that NFX). I think you should get this:

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html">http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html

This is a free plugin, you should also check the links-section there for sites with free impulses. Overall I think you are much better off with this than NFX, besides it might take some more power.

My point, which you severly missed, is that Will is sequencing with Cubase 5.1, which has strong enough effects to get going. There are also the NFX effects in GigaStudio, which, while not Lexicons or Altiverbs, are still good if worked with. I had a professional engineer come in and create special reverbs for me with NFX at a time when I couldn't afford a TC Works Powercore and other wondrous things. It worked just fine.

@PolarBear said:

http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html">http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html

My point, which you severly missed, is that Will is sequencing with Cubase 5.1, which has strong enough effects to get going. There are also the NFX effects in GigaStudio, which, while not Lexicons or Altiverbs, are still good if worked with. I had a professional engineer come in and create special reverbs for me with NFX at a time when I couldn't afford a TC Works Powercore and other wondrous things. It worked just fine.
My point to mention this common knowledge was that he doesn't NEED to spend 0.02$ more than to download this plugin plus a few impulse responses to get a NICE result, which quality-wise is near to equal to an $$$$$ Altiverb or whatelse solution you offered him (to buy). Although I do distinguish between sketching ideas/composing and a final mixdown.

I accept the gift!

However, after reading his disclaimer, I was a little concerned about downloading it.

PA

Well guys,

After listening to the QLSO demos, I'm hugely impressed by the sound of VSL. Haven't made my desicision just yet though. I still want to wait to here some of the other demos of QLSO...

Some of the QLSO samples sound very SYNTHY and edgy. After hearing the demos though, I seem to have a new respect for VSL.

Will

@Peter Alexander said:

I accept the gift!

However, after reading his disclaimer, I was a little concerned about downloading it.

PA

Disclaimer? You mean the one that is contained in almost every (afaik) software license agreement of software you sell to people?