You are welcome, Will.

Just another words to user opinions.
Sometimes it is difficult to get an "objective" view out of different opinions.
Of course we are happy, when our users are satisfied.
This is often a simple matter of taste, but sometimes also a matter of time.
In the beginning it could happen, that you can't get the result you expected, and you are not satisfied. The other day you explore a different variation inside the library, and at the moment it works perfectly for you.

Thats why I think, that support, especially in this forum is so important. In the beginning this job here was not on my "to do list". [:)]

However, most important is (IMO), that all opinions are important for us.
VSL is thought as a big developement project, also hard and software related. And the input from users is an important factor in this developement.

There are many patches in the Pro Edition, which were user related.
And our current recording schedules are massively enhanced by user wishes.

Hope this helps a little.

best wishes
Herb

Hi Will,

I think you get a 'feeling' from Herb's comments of why you can't go wrong with VSL (the company and HIS committment to support this expanding library for years to come.) For me the decision was based on the following:

1. innovative tools allowing for faster (and more convincing) execution of my writing.
2. User demos
3. Board comments from people that can be historically 'quite frank and honest'.
4. The President's personal involvement in what WE want.

IMHO, hope it helps somewhat. I get my system this Fri so please know that I have not personally taken it for a test spin. I would be happy to let you know my first few days experience.

Rob

Will,

Having dealt with this company now for quite sometime, i find them forward thinking and just good people trying to work a project (the largest orchestral library ever attempted by a long shot) as best they can. These people are not sample gods, they make mistakes, but they are people commited to always trying to improve their product. As Rob mentioned and as you saw, you got a quick response from the president of the company. This does not happen with in most fairly large buisness operations and this expierience was not a abberation, it goes on all the time (except the coming vacation weeks which I'm sure are well deserved). I am not only a fan of the library but of the people who make it happen. You will find faults with the lib, as with any lib, but the pure amount of usable material and groundbreaking detail and tools makes the library worth owning. My 2 cents.

Hey Guys,

Thanks so much for your honest answers... they really help with me making my desicion... [:D]

I was deciding between ewqlso and vsl myself but decided not to wait for more ewqlso demo's and ordered vsl this morning heheh. Hopefully I won't regret anything after I hear those demo's but I don't think I will. Something that is attractive is the future of vsl with the choir and ethnic instruments etc. that Herb plans on doing. I'm really happy to be part of the vsl club, I've been acting really hyper since I placed my order, can't wait for those samples! [H]

@Rob Elliott said:

The President's personal involvement in what WE want.

Rob

[6]
yeah herb DON'T sell the company to some american corporation that will screw it up!

Hey Will,

I had some anxiety about dropping so much $$ on the VSL as well, because I had been disappointed with some other orchestral libraries I had tried -- this was sort of my one last shot at getting my hands on what I had been trying to find for the last couple years -- the Holy Grail of orchestral samples. Wellll.... I have not been disappointed AT ALL. FINALLY, orchestral samples that actually sound like a REAL ORCHESTRA!!! Seriously, I'm already an addict -- the sounds are so amazing that you'll find yourself just sitting there playing with them because you can't stop listening! Hop over to the demos section, and realize that those demos aren't heavily tweaked and engineered to sound that realistic -- the sounds sound that good right off the bat.

Anyway, just my $.02 -- I've become very skeptical of orchestral libraries and this one blew me out of the water.

Kerry Muzzey
NY NY

@Another User said:

I was deciding between ewqlso and vsl myself but decided not to wait for more ewqlso demo's and ordered vsl this morning heheh. Hopefully I won't regret anything after I hear those demo's but I don't think I will. Something that is attractive is the future of vsl with the choir and ethnic instruments etc. that Herb plans on doing. I'm really happy to be part of the vsl club, I've been acting really hyper since I placed my order, can't wait for those samples!

One thing you can be assured of at this time. No matter how good the demos might be for QLSO, you will not get the detail and articulations of VSL. Just pure common sense tells you VSL have been recording material for a long time now, and QLSO had to get their recording done in a few weeks.

Hey guys,

Awesome, thanks again for the comments.... One thing that I've been noticing some people saying is that the VSL library is abit 'raw' sounding. Meaning you have to apply different effects and lots of reverb to get the samples to sound realistic and rich in ambience? True or false? [*-)]

Will

Mostly False,

VSL, is meant to have reverb applied. This way you can put the orchestra in what ever enviorment you want to put it in. Any other effects you might wish to put on are certainly not neccesary and take VSL out of the straight orchestral
realm. In other words I only apply reverb or an Implulse response to VSL and no other fx. You could try running an entire orchestral piece through a MXR distorton box but you will of course be held accountable for the results.

Ok I guess my next question would be:

What is a good reverb to use in unison with VSL? I'm using Cubase...

Thanks.

Will

Mac or P.C.....how powerful?

Hey sharmy your right about the articulations. With my current samples I don't have many articulation choices and with vsl having more options is definately a good thing. With ewqlso I can't see them re booking that big hall and finding keith johnson again to record more stuff. The one and only ewqlso demo so far I thought was ok but somewhere around the same time Simon Ravn's "danny's nightmare" demo came out and I was more impressed with that. I wish ewqlso well and may be buying their percussion in the future hehe.

Sharmy,

I'm on a PC... lets just say powerful enough... I reckon [:)]

Will

Also, prefferably nothing TOO pricy...

Will

@willmusser said:

Hey guys,

Awesome, thanks again for the comments.... One thing that I've been noticing some people saying is that the VSL library is abit 'raw' sounding. Meaning you have to apply different effects and lots of reverb to get the samples to sound realistic and rich in ambience? True or false? [*-)]

Will

Will, I want to respond to this from a different direction. For the moment, we'll put aside QLSO.

Starting with the Roland library through Miroslav Vitous (you might not have heard of him, but we "old guys" have his samples), the early E-MU library, Advanced Orchestra, Garritan Orchestral Strings, Sonic Implants Symphonic Strings, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Strings, Dan Dean Solo series, and now Vienna, have all been recorded "dry," meaning no room ambience or reverb was recorded with the sample. Some of these libraries, however, did and do have portions that were recorded with the ambient sound of the room (Dan Dean Brass Ensembles is one example). But for the most part, they are dry.

This means that ALL sample libraries from the past to the present, including Vienna, need reverb.

It's just no more complicated then that.

For all these libraries, there's three ways to apply reverb:

1. In the computer using the reverb with Cubase, a DSP card like the TC Works Powercore, a separate effects collection like the Waves Native Gold Bundle.

2. An external hardware reverb unit.

3. An impulse. Oversimplified, the impulse is the sound of a room that's been recorded. Depending on the program you're recording in, you apply the impulse to the recorded .wav file(s), and in this case, the orchestra, is now sounding in that room.

What do you use? Well, you use the same reverb all the rest of us used when we first started - the one you have. Later on when you get more money, look at the ones I listed, and others like Altiverb, etc. which are very popular.

Another development is that Samplitude on the PC has a real time room simulator which uses impulses. There are a number available with Samplitude and I understand from other sources.

So you have lots of options. But for now, if you get VSL, work with what you have. There are several of us here who are Cubase users whom I sure will help you with your questions as we have already.

So to summarize. Is VSL raw? No, like all the other libraries, it's recorded dry and needs reverb.

Peter

What Peter says, about covers it. You should take into consideration that having one computer with giga and and cubase and a impulse or good verb without something like power core or the UAD card will probably really tax that computer. At that point a 2nd computer becomes a good option. An external verb places no xtra tow on a computer so it's a consideration. Just giving you info to think about.

Sharmy
(My handle seems to be following me 8-}

post 100

holy....

whats your definition of "recorded wet" peter?


Will,

Some libraries can get away with less reverb than VSL yes, but some cant be as flexible as VSL in terms of FX usage. VSL is the only library I have that has a very "ambiguous" sound. Its not "close mic'd" you can obvioulsy hear the "space" between the mics and the instruments in the recordings, but its not at all drenched in room ambience.

VSL is also all recorded in stereo, with "center" placement. Allowing you to place the instrument "wherever" you want. Generally, in other libs, I find this to be problematic because you end up haveing to collapse room frequencies and such that are in the recordings, but with VSL you dont have much or any of that. The Silent stage takes care of room resonances bieng part of the problem, and general "early reflections" that can hinder some "panning" techniques.

VSL is recorded like no other library. I'll tell you that. Its plain and simple that they are thinking this out in a "big picture" sort of way. You can see it starting to come together with the announcement of MIR. There's jsut ongoing development for days, so I have a feeling that VSL will be a strong tool for MANY years to come, but still stay as flexible as it has been since day one.

As for reverbs to use. Impulses are the flavor of the day for me, and they are great. Just make sure you get good ones, and learn to EQ still [[[:)]]]

Convolution has its drawbacks too tho. Sound quality is highly dependant on the impulse itself, which is determined by a multitude of things. Also "placement" options are difficult, if not dtrimental to the effect (if you dont have MIR [;)] )

Other good ideas are to get a good hardware unit. Just about all the softreverbs are problematic for orchestral music if you ask me. This doesn't include convolvers (impulses).

Stay the heck away from NFX1 for anything more than "ideas"

Peter's right all libraries can benefit from reverb. I dont agree that all of them NEED reverb tho. Specific cues may, and what specific people want to acheive in terms of sound may require reverb, but alot of the libs recorded in bigger rooms/halls are recorded hoping that the room would be reason enough to use less or no reverb at all to get the sound they were after.

Like Sharmy said, VSL was designed to be used with reverb, which is probably why it works well with reverbs [[[:)]]] No "jumpy room", and no "room within a room" sound when using lots of early reflections.

anywho....

if you buy VSL you will have some great tools. You may get caught up in the QLSO demo hype and feel disappointed you didn't wait, but I can assure you that VSL is a great product and worth the $$$

Also in the end, think about what it is you want and need. Just because VSL is great and flexible, it may not be exactly what you want. I wish people would jsut buy the lib because its awesome and inspiring and I personally would never be able to live without the feeling I get playing some of these instruments, still for people who are "ambience nuts" it just may ruin your experience with VSL when you get it, and then listen to QLSO demos, which no doubt will have a great "out of the box" room sound.



and after that long diatribe, my advice is, win the lottery and get both, as well as other libs, and about 48 computers, and each one loaded with everything, and a huge template that is programmed with bnk/prg changes so all you have to do is "select the right patch" you want for each instrument.

It can be done, and if I had the money I'd do it [[[:)]]]

I guess I'll add my own humble comment to the other great responses on this thread. ..

This library is not even remotely like any other I've used, and I've used most all of the serious sample libraries. This is not because of mere technical recording quality - anybody can do that nowadays if they have enough money. It is really because of the knowledge of music that lies behind everything done technically. The most spectacular example of this to me is the legato, which really fulfills Arthur C. Clarke's dictum that "sufficiently advanced techonology is indistinguishable from magic."

Also the repetition tool which I at first rejected because I didn't understand it but now am really excited about. The other recent libraires are all just refinements of the same old basic idea - chromatic multi dynamic sampling of individual notes. Quantum Leap is interesting but seems right now to be merely another, more refined example of the same old approach. The VSL is radically different because instead of just accurate note recordings it tries above all to capture musical expressions that can be used in any way the composer imagines.

Thanks, William, that's about how I'd put it.

(... an another "thank you!" for quoting A.C.Clarke :-] ...)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library