French Horns in 4 parts

[mirabile]

Herb

For French horns in 4 parts, for example 4 note chords, 4 independant parts etc. what are the best samples to use?

I have mainly used the solo horn samples. For notes less than one second in duration the results I get are fine, but using the solo horn samples for note values greater than 1 second the blend of the four separate parts is not so good. I have experimented using the dynamic samples and the release samples. Should one use the horn ensemble samples? The problem with this is that if you have a four note chord using the ensemble samples you are effectively have the sound of 16 horns!

Can you make any suggestions on how I could achieve a better blend of sound in four part wriing.

This question also aplies for trumpets and trombones as well.

Thanks for your help

Regards

Mirabile

[michaelhayesmusic]

I'm experiencing the same thing with the other brass samples, so I would also like to hear the answer to this post.

[KingIdiot]

The idea that you get the sound of 16 horn samples from playing horn samples is jsut not true. Jsut for the same reason that sampling a solo horn four times and having it play on top of itself will not get you the sound of 4 horns playing unison.

Try mixing both ensemble and solo. Use 2/2 splits, or 3/1 if you have a lead/root tone you want to emphasize.

Once the second solo instruments start showing up, I doubt this will be much of a problem (Herb mentioned doing two of each solo instrument)

[Nick Batzdorf]

King, please expliquez à moi. The reason you don't get four horns (or strings, or anything else) by quadruple-tracking one player is that you only get one interpretation four times. But to me, each voice in a 4-note chord played by four players = the sound of one large, angry group of horns!

[herb]

Hello Mirabileand Michael,

I try to share my workaround for this issue.

First, it's important that you have individual control of all horn voices.
So if you are writing a piece with four solohorns using the sustains for example you should use four different miditracks.

Here you have the option to set different volume curves to each instrument, further you have the option to setup generell pannings and you could also add a modwheel controlled filter to give each horntrack individual expression.

This trick works really great, here is the workflow how you can apply a filter:


Applying a modwheel controlled lowpass flter,

easiest way is to use the filter setting which is already applied for example on the Horn_perf-leg instrument.

Load 20 HO_PERF-LEGATO.gig into the editor.
Select the "HO_perf-leg_f+filter" instrument (Bank 1) in the instrument list (top-left)

Than select the filter menu on the bottem right of the editor.
Each samples in this instrument has the same filter settings, so it doesn't matter which sample is selected.
You see, there is a Lowpass filter controlled by modwheel activated.

Save this filter settings with the Macro tool (below of these setting box)

Click on save, type a custome name in the "save as" field, and check that only the Filter settings are activated!

Click on save in this box.


Now you can load, the "LONG NOTE" gigfile of the solohorn into the editor, select the instrument, where you want to add this filter, propably the sustains with release samples.

Select all regions (they should be highlighted yellow), and select all dimensions with the "select lock" box (under the velocity window). All fields in the select lock box should be red.

Now you can apply all samples of this instrument the filter settings, using again the macro tool. This time you click on "apply" and if there are more macros already stored, you have to select the right one.
Voila, now you have to save the instrument.

This filter settings should work with most of all brass instruments.

With this filter control you can achieve now for each horn an individual timbre.

The next step is mixing related.
The problem is: If you don't alter the panning between the horns, and you don't make different (small) hall settings, you have the result, that you hear four different horns standing exactly at the same position in the concert hall. That's why an hornensemble always sound more attractive in the first moment, it has stereo wideness, and the players have individual alterations.


Another complete different aspect is, that the typical sustains of a sample library are very rare played in real live performances. There are always dynamic progressions, and solohorn is very sensible regarding this.

With volume fades and filter modulations you can go very far, but you should also try, if any of the dynamic samples are working for you.
Especially if you write sustained chords, it could help a lot, that, for example, two of the horns are programmed with sustains, and the other two with dynamic samples.

Hope this helps a little.

By the way, the blue danube introduction is programmed with four solohorns.

best wishes
Herb

[KingIdiot]

its for sure not going to sound like 4 horns playing a chord, but not as big as 16 horns thats for dang sure. Add on top of it reverb and other things. Just lower the volume and mix/match solo/ensemble samples, even less like 16 [:)]

Herb's right that oyu need to pan them slightly different.

There are other issues that arise of course. As the solo samples are THE SAME INSTRUMENT, so no matter what you dont get the varied nuance of different instruments. This alone is one reason to mix ensembles if you dont have other solo horn samples (IMO). It may take some EQ and volume adjsutments (maybe only use the sparkle from the ensemble, or only the low mids, or a little of both..etc).

The only REAL issue with mixing matching ensemble of course is that you get that "chorus" sound on on note, but its usually buried enough, especialyl with reverb, to go unnoticed.

[mirabile]

Herb & King

Thanks for help and suggestions.

Regards

Mirabile

[NG1]

I wonder if assigning the pitch bend wheel to the instrument and then re-tuning the notes of the four note chord to approximate "just intonation" instead of "equal temperment" would also help.
I keep saying I'm going to try this but I haven't - I can't stand the slow save/loads in the editor to set things up for every instrument.

[KingIdiot]

slaroussels,

oh yes this will help [[:)]]. I suck so bad at doin this that I wont try tho [[:)]]

There are people who have gone in and done this (made tuning setups for each key via keyswitch. They seem to like it.

[NG1]

Wow, it would be great if one of them were willing to share their keymapping setup. It sounds much smarter than my manually controlled pitch wheel idea.

So you're saying this can be done directly in Gigastudio?

[KingIdiot]

have a different tuning based on Keyswitches. Takes alot of time to do, as you have to have specific pitch/tuning information for every note. Thats why I never got around to trying it.

Jeff Hurchalla has done some work in this field too. Some interesting stuff involving the pitch wheel. When he first developed it I didn't understand it. Now, I get it [:)]

[NG1]

As part of Maple Tools? I tried to find a link for maple on google, but couldn't pull up anything unfortunately.

[KingIdiot]

no no, it was somethign he was fiddling around with some time ago. Nothing released. Just ideas, he's another one of those people who comes up with crazy stuff because his mind jsut doesn't stop working.

What I love about this community and NS, is that I've met quite a few people like this here. Its really interesting, but I believe these sampling communities have their own little group of mad scientists...and I MEAN Scientists.....with emphasis on MAD! [:)]

[Markus Schneider]

@slaroussels said:

As part of Maple Tools? I tried to find a link for maple on google, but couldn't pull up anything unfortunately.

I know you probably don't need, anyway who knows. So here's the link:
http://www.marblesound.com/

Cheers

[NG1]

Thanks King and Markus.