About having more than one gigastation for vsl and more...

[ellios]

(I hope it's the right part of the forum to ask these questions... )

I am about to purchase this fantastic sound banks but have a few questions to ask you guys out there that have been wrestling with it for a year or so.

1) When it comes to copying the sounds to hard drive, can you do so on many disks? I mean, could I have three giga platforms with each their own copy of the many dvds on their respective hard drives? Rest assure, I am fully aware of the amount of memory it would involve.

2) I am a composer and orchestrator in my community and I work with real orchestras most of the time and like many of you, we know that working with real musicians is always the best solution, how would you rate the library in terms of general musical rendition compared with your personal experiences with real musicians?

3) When it comes to composing for a movie or tv series, I like to stay in the MIDI world as long as I can since changes occur until the last minute. I see the gig file names in many examples posted in the forum explaining some demos and realize that it can take up to three or four midi channels for the flute part for example. (In my case now, using the Vitous library still, I often use two or three tracks of the same instrument with the different articulations I want) I like to have easy access to the different articulations from my sequencer tracks, but it seems that it can take many to acheive the desired effect. Does the performance tool solve the problem, have I not understood the principle? Any thoughts or suggestions on this? Or else simple explanation on how this thing really work?

4) How do your CPU behave in gigastudio with, say the four banks loaded up? Any recommandations?

5) It seems that the samples available now have been recorded at 44.1, 16 bit, but it is announced that the future additions will be clocked at 96, 24 bit. Will there be a dithered down version of these new samples? (Why? Because in my case, I have to choose one sampling clock for all the sampler stations I own and of course, 44.1, 16 bit is the compromise for all my machines. I can't afford to switch all the time between sampling rates when I work for tv. Time is a luxury...)

6) What do you know about the hard disk editions?


Thanks in advance to all your replies guys! [:)]

I'm sure I'll have more when I read you.

Marc.

[herb]

Hello Marc,

answers in between
all the best
Herb

1) When it comes to copying the sounds to hard drive, can you do so on many disks? I mean, could I have three giga platforms with each their own copy of the many dvds on their respective hard drives? Rest assure, I am fully aware of the amount of memory it would involve.

There is no restriction to copy the library on different systems/harddiscs.
Best way to handle it, is to connect them via LAN.
So you have to copy the DVDs only one time, and than simple copy the library over your network.

2) I am a composer and orchestrator in my community and I work with real orchestras most of the time and like many of you, we know that working with real musicians is always the best solution, how would you rate the library in terms of general musical rendition compared with your personal experiences with real musicians?

Generally the library is better in tune than a real orchestra [[;)]]
The musical input you get normaly from good musicians has to be solved by yourself if you work with samples.

3) When it comes to composing for a movie or tv series, I like to stay in the MIDI world as long as I can since changes occur until the last minute. I see the gig file names in many examples posted in the forum explaining some demos and realize that it can take up to three or four midi channels for the flute part for example. (In my case now, using the Vitous library still, I often use two or three tracks of the same instrument with the different articulations I want) I like to have easy access to the different articulations from my sequencer tracks, but it seems that it can take many to acheive the desired effect. Does the performance tool solve the problem, have I not understood the principle? Any thoughts or suggestions on this? Or else simple explanation on how this thing really work?

A standard setup where you can capture most of the common articulations would be the "Basic set" out of the orchestral cube. Here you have the most important single note articulations which can be managed with the alternation tool. Here you use one miditrack.
On a second miditrack simply use a performance legato version of this instrument.

It depends on the function and the orchestration,
for a virtuos solo with different playingstyles you will use more tracks.



4) How do your CPU behave in gigastudio with, say the four banks loaded up? Any recommandations?

Our library is not CPU extensive, RAM is the more important issue.

5) It seems that the samples available now have been recorded at 44.1, 16 bit, but it is announced that the future additions will be clocked at 96, 24 bit. Will there be a dithered down version of these new samples? (Why? Because in my case, I have to choose one sampling clock for all the sampler stations I own and of course, 44.1, 16 bit is the compromise for all my machines. I can't afford to switch all the time between sampling rates when I work for tv. Time is a luxury...)

The samples were recorded in 96 kHz 24 Bit and full editet in 96 kHz 32 Bit float. Our future releases will propably support both Bitrates 24 and 16, so you can decide which one you want to use.

6) What do you know about the hard disk editions?

They will be huge [H]

New instruments and instruments sections and new performance elements for the existing instruments.

We are recording since several month the harddisc stuff, here is a short overview (excerpt) of the new instruments:

small string ensembles, 8 double horn section, solo double horn,
french oboe, woodwind ensembles, solo and ensemble brass with sordinos,
small clarinet, saxophones, a second harp,

[NG1]

sordino brass and small string ensembles: I can't wait!

By the way herb, I just finished a piece that relied heavily on the flute and brass "upbeat" and "fast repetition" samples - they really saved the day! I sketched it with the alternating short samples, but once I plugged in the various repetitions it was utterly convincing.

[ellios]

Hi Herb and thanks for answering so promptly. [:)]

Here are some more questions for you.

4) Ok about CPU usage. What would you recommend in terms of RAM then? The more the better I suppose... Is 1Gb enough?
Also, how many gigastations would you use say to reproduce the second part of The Rite of Spring by our friend Strav, «The Naming And Honoring Of The Chosen One» (number 104 in the score until 121), all tracks staying in the midi world? This is probably an insane question but really, and I'm sure it does, if it takes less than the 64 midi tracks (4 ports X 16) that giga allows for one station, I think that I'll be good for life with your library! For this example, there are probably a few articulations that you have not sampled yet, or maybe not! so I understand how you will answer me on this one. (On second thought, I can think of heavier scores than this one like Mahler's opening of his 8th symphony «Veni Creator Spiritus», and also Bruckner... but we'll leave it at that) And by the way, I am willing to provide a rendition of this exerpt when I purchase your library soon!!! That how crazy I am...

5) So all samples are recorded at 96k. But it says on the site 44.1k for the existing libraries. Enlight me please. (I'd like to use 44.1k; even though the resolution is substantially lower, the compatibility with other libraries of stuff other than classical orchestras is acheive more easily. Think about it or suggest me anything!)

About the new instruments and sections and stuff, I must admit, Herb, you are providing a hell-of-a-library. Keep the good work going.

I particularly like the different number of players that you are sampling for a given section patch. Like small string ensemble, would probably equal to 6-6-4-4-1 and also the second harp for french music and stuff. BRAVO! [:D]

Marc.

[herb]

Ram:

I would recommend 1.5 Gig.

Gigastudio 2.5 can allocate 1 Gig Ram.
0.5 Gig should be enough for the OS and other appications.
An issue where CM could give more competent advises, because it depends also on the OS and the setup of the engine.


Rite of Spring:

Again the Ram limitation is more the problem than the available midtracks.
You can go very far with 64 miditracks especially using multi articulation instruments on one miditrack.

If I had to mock up these piece (maybe I'll do it sometime - it's one of my favourites), I would work like this:

First I would start programming with the basic sets, and if it is possible loading the most important perf-legati.
In a first work flow I would not focus on 100% realism of the sound, I would focus on tempo and balance of the instruments. Simply doing the conductors job.
After that bouncing the whole track an beginning fine tuning instrument after instrument. Here I would have enough Ram power to go to the limits.
Finishing one instrument, bouncing it, and than the next.
How far would depend, how much time fo I have to do this, or how perfect I want the mockup. For not so extensive or shorter pieces, you can of course finalize more instruments at the same time. But Rite of Spring is different.

You are right, that some stuff would be missing. If everything is here, why we should continue our project.
Many gaps will be filled with the Pro Edition. Most of the missing instruments: Piccolo, alt flute, english horn, bass trumpet and so on.
Also sordino strings of course.

Sordino brass, stopped horns, maybe woodwinds ensembles will be covered in the Symphonic Cube.

The primary focus on our first production line (First Edition, Pro Edition, Symphonic Cube I) was to enable mockups for the classical literature of the 19th and early 20th century.

Rite of Spring is a big challenge, and I have an eye on it, that it will be possible to realise this piece at the end of this year.

I have a little dejavue now, it reminds of the first phase of this project more than 7 years ago, sitting in front of Strawinkys score and imaging what kind of library I have to produce, that enables me to mock up my personal version of this piece.


96 kHZ:

This sample rate will be reserved for the next generation of sample and scoring engines, where RAM limitation is an foreign word.


best wishes
Herb

[Nick Batzdorf]

Speaking of RAM, I have a Windows novice question: how and where in XP do you monitor/determine how much RAM the OS is using and how much Giga has available?

[cm]

just right-click somewhere in an empty area of the taskbar and select taskmanager - there are several informative tabs
christian

[Nick Batzdorf]

Thank you! (I've been using a Mac mouse [1-button - or really the whole thing is a button] via a KVM switch most of the time.)

Am I right that MSG32.exe is the one showing how much Giga is using? It seems to max out at just under 538,000K on my 1 GB machine with Giga fully loaded - which would mean that the 1-1/2 GB Herb recommends is a must.

Interestingly, lowering the monitor color depth to 16 bits makes no difference (this motherboard uses shared video memory).

[cm]

isn't there a patent for the zero-button mouse? [;)]
you can launch the taskmanager also pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del (all three together) or create a shortcut to C:\WINDOWS\system32\taskmgr.exe (WINDOWS might be named WINNT on some machines)

shared vga-memory is configured in the bios of the motherboard, so reducing the color-depth or resolution in windows will not affect the memory

hth, christian

[Nick Batzdorf]

Your response on this board is really great, Christian. Thanks so much once again.

Going way off-topic, the reason I'm not crazy about 2-button mice is that clicking the main button forces you to rotate your forearm to the left slightly (if you're right-handed). Over time that places stress on my arm, which isn't a good thing if you work on computers all day long. But I do like the scroll wheel and the second button. Maybe if I were to reverse the functions of the two buttons...

[ellios]

Once more Herb, thank you for your insights.

I seem to understand your product more and more. For one, it seems to me that in light of ram limitation, if you are serious about having your stuff stay in the midi world as long as possible, you need say three giga stations with one dedicated only to strings, another for ww and brass and the other for perc and miscellaneous. That solves ram and disk access for the sounds. The sampling rate and bit depth still poses a problem to me though. We'll have to wait a little more to see how manufacturers solve this in a decent and easy-to-use way.

Marc.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Okay, now I'm confused. To test the memory use, I just loaded up this 1GB machine to 99% and added up all the instruments. Using the figures in the manuals, comes to 1152MB.

What's going on?

128 Strings_all
32 PO3-Basic_all
32 HO4- basic_all
32 PO3_dyn3_all
64 VA10_stac_1.5
128 KB_po-rep9_8-105-dim
128 HA-normal+RS-mute-sh+lo
128 FA_po-rep1_8-128-cre
128 TU_perf-leg-F
128 VC-8_mV-perf-lleg_F-porta
64 FL2-basic-all
32 OB_basic-all
128 OB_perf-leg-F
128 VL-14-basic-all comp-velocity

Am I right that the Basic instruments access the same samples with different programs, so they don't have to load everything in? Sorry to be so slow - I'm new to Giga!

[herb]

In Gigaeditor you get the information, how much Ram an instrument would need. It's always rounded. For an instrument between 0 - 32 MB size you need 32 MB. 33 - 64 MB size you need 64 MB, 65 - 128 MB you need 128 MB. This rounded sizes are listed in the manual.

If you want to have 100% precise calculations you have to count each individual sample.
One stereo sample needs 128 kB.
The sample count of all BASIC INSTRUMENTS is also listed in the manuals.

Equal samples loaded from different gigfiles are loaded twice.
Only equal samples out of one gigfile (used for different instrument programmings) are loaded one time.

best wishes
Herb

[Nick Batzdorf]

Hm. Well, the rounded sizes from the manual are what I've listed, and I have that list open in 1GB of RAM running XP! It doesn't look like there are very many instruments from the same gig file, but even if there are a couple, I'm confused about why that setup is possible.

I'm certainly not interested in precise calculations, just trying to understand how this works. And of course I'm not complaining that it's holding too many instruments.

Jumping into Windows, Giga, and VSL all at once makes for an exciting adventure!

Thanks yet again for your speedy replies.

[cm]

a *fuzzy* calculation according to herb's figures - rounded size of 128 would give an average *real* size of 112 (meanvalue of 96 and 12[H]. leaving aside the 32 MB-files the needed space for your list would be 10 x 16 MB lower than the rounded numbers = 160 MB. subtracting this from the 1152 MB you mentioned gives 992 MB, which correlates to 99% of 1 GB. makes sense?
finally this would mean to me, XP isn't as bad as supposed for running gigastudio ...
christian

[Peter Alexander]

@cm said:

a *fuzzy* calculation according to herb's figures - rounded size of 128 would give an average *real* size of 112 (meanvalue of 96 and 12[H]. leaving aside the 32 MB-files the needed space for your list would be 10 x 16 MB lower than the rounded numbers = 160 MB. subtracting this from the 1152 MB you mentioned gives 992 MB, which correlates to 99% of 1 GB. makes sense?
finally this would mean to me, XP isn't as bad as supposed for running gigastudio ...
christian

Uhhh...where did I put my slide rule? [[:|]]

[cm]

@Another User said:

Uhhh...where did I put my slide rule?

if i get some time left, i'll program a kind of *samples-in-ram-calculator* [;)]
christian

[Nick Batzdorf]

Thanks Christian.

The maths make sense, except that XP has to take some RAM as well! Maybe the swapfile doing the work.

Meanwhile, I've ordered the RAM to bring the memory up to 1-1/2 gigs. That makes more sense to me than downgrading to Windows 98.

[Tokyo Joe]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Meanwhile, I've ordered the RAM to bring the memory up to 1-1/2 gigs. That makes more sense to me than downgrading to Windows 98.

Nick, I really noticed a big difference when I went from 1 to 1 .5 Gig RAM. XP was obviously hogging quite a bit of the available RAM as some instruments would take literally minutes to load. Now loading times are back to normal.

[Nick Batzdorf]

Good to know, thanks. (Although I could be wrong, but I have a sense that the slow loading - literally minutes, as you say - is just the first time you load a .gig.)

But the extra RAM makes sense anyway. Too bad there are only two slots, because 512 MB sticks are about 1/4 the price of 1 GB ones right now! On the other hand, we're spoiled. I remember spending $350 to bring my Mac Plus up to 4 megs.