Peter,

your arguments make sense from the historical point of view(ie how the VSL/EXS24 co-operation came about) but I have to agree with Lee over pricing.I'm a comitted Mac/Logic user and I like the integration that brings. However, we have yet to see how well EXS24(mkII) handles VSL. I'm considering buying VSL on my platform of choice (EXS24). BUT in my experience so far, EXS doesn't handle some issues -like crossfading for instance-as well as I would wish. And, we are all aware that there will be performance limitations when using "only" one computer.So, my Plan B would be to become a Giga user, adding one or more PCs to my setup as needed. Many sample producers (Garritan, Dan Dean) offer upgrades and additional content free of charge. To my mind, this is an excellent way to encourage registration and support customer loyalty. VSL of course is a way bigger project than anything elso so far in the sampling landscape, and as such is expensive. Yes, we can see the value it offers: but I think the high cost of a side licence is not helpful to users making a major investment in a new product which may offer distinct, as yet unknown, advantages on differing (read Giga/EXS) platforms.

best wishes

Nigel Watson

Hi Lee

@Another User said:

No, I'm not getting a second COMPLETE library. The content is exactly the same, and I've already paid for the license to use it.

eh - no - you're getting more! - The programming for the EXS24, thats
what you pay for. I'm sure it would be perfectly allright for you to do you're own programming from scratch, using the samples from you're Giga set.
But what a task - eh? [:)]

kind regards
Bjarne

@Another User said:

eh - no - you're getting more!

Yeah, but I want less! Less is more, remember. [;)]

One, single version of VSL that's usable on Mac or PC, as a stand alone version or as a plug-in would be ideal. Maybe they can start working on that for the Symphonic version.

Lee Blaske

lee, what an interesting thought - VSL as a standalone-version.

if your understanding of *standalone* means bypassing the need of a sampling-program then it had to be some kind of *universal* plugin for all - or at least the most common - sequencing-programs (maybe similar as currently exs is for logic), working on all common operating-systems.

considering the fact, that development not even for exs will continue for windows _and_ macOS, this looks to me beeing rather a demand to software-manufacturers than to VSL.
on the other hand VSL could start to develop it's own software (which already happend somehow with the performance tool) or license some existing sampling-engine and enhance it to their needs.

let's make a step aside: while W98/ME/2K/XP generally is based on the same system-calls, development for OS9/OSX will be twice the work (and i'm pretty sure a lot of users will continue using OS9 for a long time and similar or more valid reasons like others still stick with W98 instead of switching to XP) - and i'm not mentioning any possibly upcoming need to develop for linux.

so no matter in which direction things might grow, a great deal of energy is and will be necessary to be and keep compatible even to the most common programs and platforms. this has absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the sound-samples itself (a wave-file is a wave-file) but with the interface for the usage of these, which is presented to the user.

there are a few companies/applications left, which offer cross-platform-licenses at all - means you are entitled to run a program either on one OS _or_ another. in any case it requires a second license to run it on both platforms simultaneously - some of them even ask you which license runs on which platform.

so if VSL would only give you a handfull of samples and leaves you alone to stick them together to an audible piece of music, your argument would be valid. but even with the orchestral cube *only*, you get much more in your hands than a heap of wave-files - you get a fine mapping of instruments including the option to use the existing capabilities of your sampling-program and a fancy tool to expand your possibilities.

unfortunately tascam/nemesys does not develop for mac and apple/emagic does not for windows - roumors say someone or other is even dropping support for gigastudio at all. so any effort to be compatible is and will remain a significant factor regarding creation, development and distribution resulting in needed time, staff and expenditure.

beeing in doubt to do it the other way around and build an application/plugin for the use on both (and in reality it are three) platforms would be easier/cheaper, this also could not be delivered for no charge - exs for windows requires an extra license if you already run exs on mac or not (oops, all windows-related stuff disappeared already from the surface of the emagic-website).

returning to the topic of side-licensing - i don't see an argument in general, why VSL should be delivered for a second platform/application for no cost. the data-layer itself (sound-samples) - you already have it, the presentation-layer (mapping) is a second level, the application-layer (tools) even a third and i'm sure every user will claim support/updates for all platforms/applications if he _needs_ to use them (and for what reason else he should side-license them?)

forgive me , if i've been lenghty again, but i had to share my point of view
christian

ps: this message expresses my personal view and not necessarily those of any company i'm employed or related with.

Lee,

I know that the licesing issues are slightly different, but if I want to run GigaStudio on more than one machine, I have to pay for more than 1 licence - albeit at a reduced price. If I want to run Windows on more that one machine, I have to pay full-whack for each, even if this is at OEM prices.
When I upgraded my Macs, I had to buy Jaguar enough times to cover each machine - at no reduced price ('cos I had less than 5 - 'family pack')

in my mind, a Giga version that you are allowed to copy as many times onto the machines you use is a great licence. Likewise for EXS - but to have both is like having a separate app. Half price for a second license is a good deal...

just my 2p-worth - peace

Peter

Hmmm...if committed VSL Users think the Side Licence pricing is fair and appropriate, maybe I should think again.... [:)]
Nigel

I was considering a side license to make better use of my almost useless new mac that only runs OSX, but there's no way I would pay anywhere near that money for a side license just so I could run the library on one more machine. I don't see how it can be more profitable to charge that amount of money - it seems to me far fewer customers would be interseted in side license at that price, but I'm no financial/business expert. I'm saving my money for the pro-edition, thank you very much. [:)]

But, hey, if VSL ends up making a lot of extra money from these side licenses, more power to them. I'm very interested in the financial success of the company - I want them to continue developing new samples for years to come and anything that helps them achieve that goal is fine by me.

@Nigel Watson said:

Peter,

your arguments make sense from the historical point of view(ie how the VSL/EXS24 co-operation came about) but I have to agree with Lee over pricing.I'm a comitted Mac/Logic user and I like the integration that brings. However, we have yet to see how well EXS24(mkII) handles VSL. I'm considering buying VSL on my platform of choice (EXS24). BUT in my experience so far, EXS doesn't handle some issues -like crossfading for instance-as well as I would wish. And, we are all aware that there will be performance limitations when using "only" one computer.So, my Plan B would be to become a Giga user, adding one or more PCs to my setup as needed. Many sample producers (Garritan, Dan Dean) offer upgrades and additional content free of charge. To my mind, this is an excellent way to encourage registration and support customer loyalty. VSL of course is a way bigger project than anything elso so far in the sampling landscape, and as such is expensive. Yes, we can see the value it offers: but I think the high cost of a side licence is not helpful to users making a major investment in a new product which may offer distinct, as yet unknown, advantages on differing (read Giga/EXS) platforms.

best wishes

Nigel Watson

Hi, Nigel, I apologize for the delay in responding to your post.

1. I haven't seen a demo of the EXS. Like everyone here, I didn't know it was even released until I saw it on the site! What I have heard "under the table" is that the VSL guys have done a really wonderful job and that this is a very cool version. In fact, at AES, they were demo-ing the EXS beta version. So I would think that would be a VERY good sign.

2. Regarding pricing. I have two sets of the Kirk Hunter Strings. One is for the E4 and the other for GigaStudio. These versions are completely and totally programmed from the ground up, as EXS was. So they are two different versions of the same library. They each have different sets of controls based on the individual samplerI think many forget that to be a quality library, it has to be programmed from the ground up, not just run thorugh Translator or CDXtract, tweaked and shipped. So it's not the same data. They are two different versions.

3. Regarding Plan B. I think first, start a thread asking for a specs list. I'm sure everyone is exhausted from getting EXS out, and they're just running a little behind. Plan B is certainly what most non-Logic users are doing (since EXS only works in Logic), especially those upgrading to the Pro Edition. But for a day or so, wait.

4. The comparison to DD or GOS I can't completely agree with. Sorry. This is a full orchestra. Ongoing recording and production are happening. Herb has announced that in time, .art files and other "free" things will be made available to VSL customers. But you know, we're all limited to "two-hands" each, and that's true in Vienna, too! Priorities have to be set. If it's a choice of getting a few "feel good" .art files vs. seeing the Pro Edition get out, I want the Pro Edition! FYI, over at Truespec, for our customers, we're now getting out our own bonus .art files, training guides and templates (another group should ship out today or tomorrow, in fact). So it is available.

5. For your final point, of course, you have to see the specs and see what it does. As a former Logic user, I've always been impressed with the EXS24 sound. And if it was still on the PC, I'd be even more impressed! But give them a day or so to get everything posted on the site, then make your decision. And when you order, please do consider us.

Thanks!

Peter Alexander
www.truespec.com
peter@truespec.com
310-559-3779

Just want to add my two cents:

We tried to offer our users different possibilities.

1st Crossgrading via upgrading,

here you pay only for the new sample stuff, and you get the previous edition for free on each sample plattform we support.


2nd Side Licenses,

if you want to have two plattforms immediately.


3rd easy selfmade conversion

During designing the EXS version we communicate with Emagic and the EXS developers. Finally we want to support selfmade conversions which work for our customers. For example: emagic implemented an intelligent "wav-naming algorythm", so filenames which are longer than 31 strings were reduced without loosing the keynames at the end. The algorythm design is so intelligent, that no doubled filenames should appear.

One restriction at the moment is, that you can't convert gigfiles which use two dimension controllers (keyswitch and modwheel) in one gigfile.
But I don't see a restriction when you copy a "BASIC INSTRUMENTS" out of a gigfile, save it as a new gigfile and convert it to EXS.

This solution is of course a hillarious job for converting the whole library,
but I would say it's accepatble if you want to use for example some percussion stuff on the EXS.

Our EXS mapping team will support you, if you have any conversion questions.

I hope everybody understands, that we can't offer side licenses on different plattforms for free.
Our replication costs are extremly expensive, our distributors also want to earn money, printed manuals, performance tool programming for MAC OS,
and so on.

best wishes
Herb

Hi Peter, hi Herb

and thank you for your input & explanations (sorry, only just saw them).

I've changed my mind [;)] ....it seems a side licence at a reduced price is actually a fair deal.

As to the Logic-EXS/Giga question....well, we'll see...for myself, my experience is that it never hurts to wait and observe a while before committing to a new way of working ( I was still using Notator on the Atari until 1998!). So I'll take a deep breath and keep reading the posts

best wishes

Nigel

Does anybody have any experience with the Chickensystem Translator? Can it convert better then EX24? does it convert dimension controlers?

thanks

Iwan