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  3. VSL side license price for EXS24 too steep?

  • VSL side license price for EXS24 too steep?

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    I just received a bit of a shock.

    I got a price quote from Ilio on the side license to run VSL on EXS24 (i.e. EXS24 in addition to GS). The price quoted is $1,545.00 (that's in addition to the original $3,090.00). Does half the price again to use the exact same samples on a different platform seem a bit steep to anyone?

    IMO, this is where VSL being locked into GigaStudio is going to cost us serious money. This is where the rubber meets the road.

    Wouldn't it be nicer if VSL was available in Intakt or Mach 5 format so it would be crossplatform, and usable in different contexts, without having to pay large, additional fees?

    I realize that it took significant effort to port VSL to EXS24, but it seems like a real penalty for going this route. EWQLSO, for instance, will play on either platform with no extra charge. On top of that, EWQLSO doesn't require spending $699.99 (list) to buy GigaStudio 160 in the first place, and it's 24 bits out of the gate (not 16), with more polyphony (on a powerful machine, of course). That seems like quite a market advantage. Personally, I'd rather put the significant price differential into faster computers, rather than additional proprietary editions. Again, I realize that it's a significant effort and cost for VSL to develop for two platforms rather than one, but it's VSL's choice to do it this way, not ours.

    As much as I like EXS24, I would prefer to see VSL move to a single release in a bundled format that's cross platform, and usable as either a stand alone application, or as a plug-in to a digital audio sequencer. Either that, or the side license should be MUCH less expensive. As an additional issue, I wonder if a significant added fee will be required when upgrading to new versions of VSL. This could get REALLY expensive.

    Developing for separate, proprietary platforms seems awfully expensive for end users, and it doesn't seem like the way of the future. At half again the initial purchase price, I believe I'll pass on the side license in favor of investing that money in other library products.

    Lee Blaske
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    "Does half the price again to use the exact same samples on a different platform seem a bit steep to anyone?"

    PA] No, not really. First, as you noted, Lee, you ARE getting two complete versions, with the second going for half-price. That's a total of 180GB.

    "Wouldn't it be nicer if VSL was available in Intakt or Mach 5 format so it would be crossplatform, and usable in different contexts, without having to pay large, additional fees? "

    PA] It would be nice, except those programs weren't really "around" when this project got going. At that time, GigaStudio had eclipsed the E4 as the leading sampler (try doing this library in a 128MB of RAM - how many E4s did you say?). It is STILL the dominant selling program. I can't speak for VSL, but I know the other programs aren't ready yet for this library. I do know that other formats are planned for. And as announced in one thread here, a VSL customer ably imported it into the current version of HALion with minor editing changes. So you do have the "Kontakt" option, except that Logic only supports audio units, and not the VST Plug-ins folder.

    "I realize that it took significant effort to port VSL to EXS24, but it seems like a real penalty for going this route. EWQLSO, for instance, will play on either platform with no extra charge. "

    PA] This is apples and oranges. The design and implementation concept behind the two programs is totally different.

    "On top of that, EWQLSO doesn't require spending $699.99 (list) to buy GigaStudio 160 in the first place, "

    PA] Tascam set set the price (for the first copy), and second, there are dealers here like myself who have it available at MAP pricing. Third, this is a design factor. NI makes software instruments that are first plug-ins and second, to a lesser extent, free standing. There have been NO announcements yet as to how many instances an EW/QLSO module can be opened on a PC or a Mac.

    And that reminds me, it sounds like you're on a Mac. So to get the most out of EW/QLSO, Mac or PC, you must have at least one more machine, and in a public forum, it was announced that the dream machine (which we have available at www.truespec.com) is a 4GB system and you need three of them. That's three computers, three audio cards, three MIDI interfaces for each computer and matching MIDI interfaces on the Mac to control the MIDI send from the host computer.

    If you're going to do the math, let's do all the math so we can see the complete picture. That's only fair.

    "and it's 24 bits out of the gate (not 16), with more polyphony (on a powerful machine, of course). "

    PA] That's a Tascam issue.

    "Again, I realize that it's a significant effort and cost for VSL to develop for two platforms rather than one, but it's VSL's choice to do it this way, not ours. "

    PA] Well, it IS a significant cost to develop two programs at once. But you're missing a major historical fact. On June 30, 2002, the EXS 24 existed on the PC. On July 1, 2002, it no longer existed on the PC with over 1/3 its user base dismissed. To his credit, Herb finished the project. And as a dealer for Herb. we're all hoping Mr. Jobs is selling as much as is hoped for and was promised. So what we have is a one platform sampler that only works as a plug-in. That call goes to Sven Kindel at Emagic and Steve Jobs at Apple.

    http://www.emagic.de/company/contact/index.php?lang=EN

    "As much as I like EXS24, I would prefer to see VSL move to a single release in a bundled format that's cross platform, and usable as either a stand alone application, or as a plug-in to a digital audio sequencer."

    PA] It WAS cross platform until July 1. Right now, it's up to Apple/Emagic to design the EXS24 so that it can work as a free standing program. However, Lee, you keep omitting in your wish list that you need a second computer. The Mac's RAM will run out, so you need a second or third system anyway.

    "At half again the initial purchase price, I believe I'll pass on the side license in favor of investing that money in other library products."

    PA] On one hand, I think is a valid conclusion, but the problem is not VSL. Tascam is over a year late for 3.0, and on July 2, there was no PC version of the EXS 24. None of us know what was promised to VSL about the EXS24 and where it's development was going. Even so, at the time of VSL's release, EXS was one platform/plug in use and Giga was/is one platform, multiple systems possibly required. It is also a fact that if tomorrow, Apple announced a stand alone version of the EXS24, you'd still need multiple machines.

    If you've followed my posts here, you know that normally, I very rarely respond to these kinds of comments. And I don't want you to feel "put down" or "picked on". But what I'm reacting adversely to is the concept of this word that runs throughout your post: should've.

    They "should've" done this, and they "should've" done that. That's unfair.

    That EXS24 users are limited to a single machine right now is Apple's fault, not VSL's. So if you're going to point fingers, let's aim to the correct part of the globe. Tell Sven and Steve Jobs how you feel about them costing you an extra fee. Had you considered this to be an act of graciousness on VSL's part to even HAVE a side license, since Apple/Emagic confined you to the single system and not VSL ?

    My goodness, you're getting a second, COMPLETE library for half price.

    In the word's of Charlie Brown, "Good Grief!"

    Peter Alexander
    peter@truesepc.com
    www.truespec.com
    310-559-3779
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    @Another User said:

    My goodness, you're getting a second, COMPLETE library for half price.


    No, I'm not getting a second COMPLETE library. The content is exactly the same, and I've already paid for the license to use it. I'd just be paying for the ability to use it on a different machine. I can already have multiple instanciations on GS machines with my first license, so I'm not even getting the ability to have more instanciations. It's more like having a CD I can play in my home stereo, and a cassette copy to take out jogging.

    I realize that the work on this product began before the new dual platform plug-ins that function as plug-ins and stand alone applications were out. Work on a new version of VSL continues, however, and it strikes me that this would be an opportune time to shift gears.

    Also, the relative costs seem out of kilter. For instance, rather than spend $1545 on the side license, I could wait and spend a mere $2,000 on the entirely new Pro version when it comes out and crossgrade to the EXS24 version at that point at no additional charge (and still keep my original GS VSL library). To me, that might make more sense. At that point, I would assume that the EXS24 version will be 24 bits, while the GS version will still be stuck at 16 bits. Plus, at that time, maybe we'll know more about the future of GS (although I'm not going to hold me breath on that).

    Personally, I'm currently using my Mac daw rig, two PC's primarily running GS at this point, and five E4XT's. At this point, it's a matter of distributing work load. It would be nice to have the EXS24 version of VSL, but I simply think that the cost of the side license at this point is prohibitively expensive, when there are a lot of other products with new/different content on which that money could be spent.

    Philosophically, I think it just sets the wrong precedent. The lion's share of the purchase price should pay for the content itself, not the delivery method. I thought easy access to the content we purchased was one a tenet of VSL's philosophy, but now it appears we will also be charged substantial sums for platform migration. VSL really should find a way to make the content we're buying accessible on both the PC and Mac platforms, and usable within multiple hosts, or as a stand alone application.

    That's the direction the industry is moving, and it would be perilous for VSL to ignore the trend.

    I really believe the cost of the side license should be much less. BTW, the side license should come with no fancy packaging. I'm really getting frustrated by all these products in huge, fancy boxes. They take up WAY too much space, yet they're too imposing and important looking to throw out. I thought the Europeans were supposed to be the environmentally conscious ones, yet they're chopping down precious trees to make software boxes (to say nothing of the additional boxes that these fancy boxes need to be shipped in, plus the energy wasted in transporting all the useless packaging). VSL and other software manufacturers are going to force me to buy a big, gas guzzling SUV just to haul all this cardboard to the recyclers. [;)]

    Lee Blaske
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    Peter,

    your arguments make sense from the historical point of view(ie how the VSL/EXS24 co-operation came about) but I have to agree with Lee over pricing.I'm a comitted Mac/Logic user and I like the integration that brings. However, we have yet to see how well EXS24(mkII) handles VSL. I'm considering buying VSL on my platform of choice (EXS24). BUT in my experience so far, EXS doesn't handle some issues -like crossfading for instance-as well as I would wish. And, we are all aware that there will be performance limitations when using "only" one computer.So, my Plan B would be to become a Giga user, adding one or more PCs to my setup as needed. Many sample producers (Garritan, Dan Dean) offer upgrades and additional content free of charge. To my mind, this is an excellent way to encourage registration and support customer loyalty. VSL of course is a way bigger project than anything elso so far in the sampling landscape, and as such is expensive. Yes, we can see the value it offers: but I think the high cost of a side licence is not helpful to users making a major investment in a new product which may offer distinct, as yet unknown, advantages on differing (read Giga/EXS) platforms.

    best wishes

    Nigel Watson
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    Hi Lee

    @Another User said:


    No, I'm not getting a second COMPLETE library. The content is exactly the same, and I've already paid for the license to use it.


    eh - no - you're getting more! - The programming for the EXS24, thats
    what you pay for. I'm sure it would be perfectly allright for you to do you're own programming from scratch, using the samples from you're Giga set.
    But what a task - eh? [:)]

    kind regards
    Bjarne
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    @Another User said:

    eh - no - you're getting more!


    Yeah, but I want less! Less is more, remember. [;)]

    One, single version of VSL that's usable on Mac or PC, as a stand alone version or as a plug-in would be ideal. Maybe they can start working on that for the Symphonic version.

    Lee Blaske
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    lee, what an interesting thought - VSL as a standalone-version.

    if your understanding of *standalone* means bypassing the need of a sampling-program then it had to be some kind of *universal* plugin for all - or at least the most common - sequencing-programs (maybe similar as currently exs is for logic), working on all common operating-systems.

    considering the fact, that development not even for exs will continue for windows _and_ macOS, this looks to me beeing rather a demand to software-manufacturers than to VSL.
    on the other hand VSL could start to develop it's own software (which already happend somehow with the performance tool) or license some existing sampling-engine and enhance it to their needs.

    let's make a step aside: while W98/ME/2K/XP generally is based on the same system-calls, development for OS9/OSX will be twice the work (and i'm pretty sure a lot of users will continue using OS9 for a long time and similar or more valid reasons like others still stick with W98 instead of switching to XP) - and i'm not mentioning any possibly upcoming need to develop for linux.

    so no matter in which direction things might grow, a great deal of energy is and will be necessary to be and keep compatible even to the most common programs and platforms. this has absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the sound-samples itself (a wave-file is a wave-file) but with the interface for the usage of these, which is presented to the user.

    there are a few companies/applications left, which offer cross-platform-licenses at all - means you are entitled to run a program either on one OS _or_ another. in any case it requires a second license to run it on both platforms simultaneously - some of them even ask you which license runs on which platform.

    so if VSL would only give you a handfull of samples and leaves you alone to stick them together to an audible piece of music, your argument would be valid. but even with the orchestral cube *only*, you get much more in your hands than a heap of wave-files - you get a fine mapping of instruments including the option to use the existing capabilities of your sampling-program and a fancy tool to expand your possibilities.

    unfortunately tascam/nemesys does not develop for mac and apple/emagic does not for windows - roumors say someone or other is even dropping support for gigastudio at all. so any effort to be compatible is and will remain a significant factor regarding creation, development and distribution resulting in needed time, staff and expenditure.

    beeing in doubt to do it the other way around and build an application/plugin for the use on both (and in reality it are three) platforms would be easier/cheaper, this also could not be delivered for no charge - exs for windows requires an extra license if you already run exs on mac or not (oops, all windows-related stuff disappeared already from the surface of the emagic-website).

    returning to the topic of side-licensing - i don't see an argument in general, why VSL should be delivered for a second platform/application for no cost. the data-layer itself (sound-samples) - you already have it, the presentation-layer (mapping) is a second level, the application-layer (tools) even a third and i'm sure every user will claim support/updates for all platforms/applications if he _needs_ to use them (and for what reason else he should side-license them?)

    forgive me , if i've been lenghty again, but i had to share my point of view
    christian

    ps: this message expresses my personal view and not necessarily those of any company i'm employed or related with.
    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • P
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    Lee,

    I know that the licesing issues are slightly different, but if I want to run GigaStudio on more than one machine, I have to pay for more than 1 licence - albeit at a reduced price. If I want to run Windows on more that one machine, I have to pay full-whack for each, even if this is at OEM prices.
    When I upgraded my Macs, I had to buy Jaguar enough times to cover each machine - at no reduced price ('cos I had less than 5 - 'family pack')

    in my mind, a Giga version that you are allowed to copy as many times onto the machines you use is a great licence. Likewise for EXS - but to have both is like having a separate app. Half price for a second license is a good deal...

    just my 2p-worth - peace

    Peter
  • N
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    Hmmm...if committed VSL Users think the Side Licence pricing is fair and appropriate, maybe I should think again.... [:)]
    Nigel
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    I was considering a side license to make better use of my almost useless new mac that only runs OSX, but there's no way I would pay anywhere near that money for a side license just so I could run the library on one more machine. I don't see how it can be more profitable to charge that amount of money - it seems to me far fewer customers would be interseted in side license at that price, but I'm no financial/business expert. I'm saving my money for the pro-edition, thank you very much. [:)]

    But, hey, if VSL ends up making a lot of extra money from these side licenses, more power to them. I'm very interested in the financial success of the company - I want them to continue developing new samples for years to come and anything that helps them achieve that goal is fine by me.
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    @Nigel Watson said:

    Peter,

    your arguments make sense from the historical point of view(ie how the VSL/EXS24 co-operation came about) but I have to agree with Lee over pricing.I'm a comitted Mac/Logic user and I like the integration that brings. However, we have yet to see how well EXS24(mkII) handles VSL. I'm considering buying VSL on my platform of choice (EXS24). BUT in my experience so far, EXS doesn't handle some issues -like crossfading for instance-as well as I would wish. And, we are all aware that there will be performance limitations when using "only" one computer.So, my Plan B would be to become a Giga user, adding one or more PCs to my setup as needed. Many sample producers (Garritan, Dan Dean) offer upgrades and additional content free of charge. To my mind, this is an excellent way to encourage registration and support customer loyalty. VSL of course is a way bigger project than anything elso so far in the sampling landscape, and as such is expensive. Yes, we can see the value it offers: but I think the high cost of a side licence is not helpful to users making a major investment in a new product which may offer distinct, as yet unknown, advantages on differing (read Giga/EXS) platforms.

    best wishes

    Nigel Watson


    Hi, Nigel, I apologize for the delay in responding to your post.

    1. I haven't seen a demo of the EXS. Like everyone here, I didn't know it was even released until I saw it on the site! What I have heard "under the table" is that the VSL guys have done a really wonderful job and that this is a very cool version. In fact, at AES, they were demo-ing the EXS beta version. So I would think that would be a VERY good sign.

    2. Regarding pricing. I have two sets of the Kirk Hunter Strings. One is for the E4 and the other for GigaStudio. These versions are completely and totally programmed from the ground up, as EXS was. So they are two different versions of the same library. They each have different sets of controls based on the individual samplerI think many forget that to be a quality library, it has to be programmed from the ground up, not just run thorugh Translator or CDXtract, tweaked and shipped. So it's not the same data. They are two different versions.

    3. Regarding Plan B. I think first, start a thread asking for a specs list. I'm sure everyone is exhausted from getting EXS out, and they're just running a little behind. Plan B is certainly what most non-Logic users are doing (since EXS only works in Logic), especially those upgrading to the Pro Edition. But for a day or so, wait.

    4. The comparison to DD or GOS I can't completely agree with. Sorry. This is a full orchestra. Ongoing recording and production are happening. Herb has announced that in time, .art files and other "free" things will be made available to VSL customers. But you know, we're all limited to "two-hands" each, and that's true in Vienna, too! Priorities have to be set. If it's a choice of getting a few "feel good" .art files vs. seeing the Pro Edition get out, I want the Pro Edition! FYI, over at Truespec, for our customers, we're now getting out our own bonus .art files, training guides and templates (another group should ship out today or tomorrow, in fact). So it is available.

    5. For your final point, of course, you have to see the specs and see what it does. As a former Logic user, I've always been impressed with the EXS24 sound. And if it was still on the PC, I'd be even more impressed! But give them a day or so to get everything posted on the site, then make your decision. And when you order, please do consider us.

    Thanks!

    Peter Alexander
    www.truespec.com
    peter@truespec.com
    310-559-3779
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    Just want to add my two cents:

    We tried to offer our users different possibilities.

    1st Crossgrading via upgrading,

    here you pay only for the new sample stuff, and you get the previous edition for free on each sample plattform we support.


    2nd Side Licenses,

    if you want to have two plattforms immediately.


    3rd easy selfmade conversion

    During designing the EXS version we communicate with Emagic and the EXS developers. Finally we want to support selfmade conversions which work for our customers. For example: emagic implemented an intelligent "wav-naming algorythm", so filenames which are longer than 31 strings were reduced without loosing the keynames at the end. The algorythm design is so intelligent, that no doubled filenames should appear.

    One restriction at the moment is, that you can't convert gigfiles which use two dimension controllers (keyswitch and modwheel) in one gigfile.
    But I don't see a restriction when you copy a "BASIC INSTRUMENTS" out of a gigfile, save it as a new gigfile and convert it to EXS.

    This solution is of course a hillarious job for converting the whole library,
    but I would say it's accepatble if you want to use for example some percussion stuff on the EXS.

    Our EXS mapping team will support you, if you have any conversion questions.

    I hope everybody understands, that we can't offer side licenses on different plattforms for free.
    Our replication costs are extremly expensive, our distributors also want to earn money, printed manuals, performance tool programming for MAC OS,
    and so on.

    best wishes
    Herb
  • N
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    Hi Peter, hi Herb

    and thank you for your input & explanations (sorry, only just saw them).

    I've changed my mind [;)] ....it seems a side licence at a reduced price is actually a fair deal.

    As to the Logic-EXS/Giga question....well, we'll see...for myself, my experience is that it never hurts to wait and observe a while before committing to a new way of working ( I was still using Notator on the Atari until 1998!). So I'll take a deep breath and keep reading the posts

    best wishes

    Nigel
  • I
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    Does anybody have any experience with the Chickensystem Translator? Can it convert better then EX24? does it convert dimension controlers?

    thanks

    Iwan