my brass is "thin, cheesy & electronic"

[superstringcheese]

according to my producer, all the music i'm doing for the show is great, except this sort of synth-stink on the brass. i am at a loss as to how to get the brass more "realistic". i'm no engineer & my mixes are surely a mess. as far as the brass goes, it all gets routed through an aux channel with Trueverb & a subtle multitap delay. i'm not eq'ing anything seperately (for the most part) & am just doing a rough eq on the end mix, plus another layer of reverb to broaden it out a bit.

using sonar xl2.2, giga, vsl cube/perf set, waves plugins, sound forge 6.

any "just do this" advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance,
david

[KingIdiot]

Just kick the producer,

or show him some Roland JV-1080 brass for comparison... [;)]

seriously, cant really say since we haven't heard what he's hearing

[superstringcheese]

good point.

you can find a 44KHz, 16bit .wav file (just under 12Mb) here:
http://www.cheesewater.addr.com/music/Vikings_thm_1b_alt_mix.wav

and a smaller mp3 version (about 1Mb) here:
http://www.cheesewater.addr.com/music/Vikings_thm_1b_alt_mix.mp3


btw, for this mix i took off the delay & everything is being routed through 1 Waves Trueverb on the main.

thanks again

[KingIdiot]

I dont think its much to do with anything except mixing.

whole mix still seems a bit "in your face". What happens is the stacatto/short notes with the brass seem to blast you, then the rest starts to jell together.

A little EQing out of the high frequencies in the brass might help keep it more subtle.

I'd also put the mix "farther back" personally. Everything seems to play from the same "distance" with just some reverb to wash it together. Use Pre fader Aux sends and try dropping back a little of the dry/normal fader. In particular the timp seems to jump out at me at forte.

If I were to work on this mix alone as a stereo mix, I'd prolly boost some ultra lows, cut some frequencies around 5k, and maybe boost some ultrahighs, then run the whole thing through a reverb with something I could shape some reflections with, like sound stage.

It just feels like it could do with more reflections and a general "stage" sound.

but thats just my personal preference. It doesn't mean it will be exactly what you want/need

[mirabile]

[quote=KingIdiot]

I'd also put the mix "farther back" personally. Everything seems to play from the same "distance" with just some reverb to wash it together. Use Pre fader Aux sends and try dropping back a little of the dry/normal fader. In particular the timp seems to jump out at me at forte.

King

In your response to this thread you suggested that the mix would sound better if the brass was "dropped back". How can you achieve a distance effect (brass, timpani and other percussion behind strings and woodwinds). You gave some clues on how to do this in your reply but I am not sure how this can be achieved with my setup. I am using Cubase 5.0 and a Lexicon MPX-1 Multiprocessor and a Spirit Folio mixing desk.

Thanks for any help

Mirabile.

[KingIdiot]

usually its as simple as: Less dry signal, or more Wet Signal.

But other things to think of are dropping some of the high/highmid frequencies and low mid frequency that causes "proximity" in the dry signal (I'd actually pump a little low mids in the dry signal GOING to the wet signal since I like the sound of it "building up" in the room for brass, then I EQ the reverb return to make it less muddy....simple user preference here tho and doesn't always work)

Other things that help are working with early reflections to give more emphasis of "placement" and working with them to give a sends of a "room". This can get tricky tho, as certain reverbs can ahve a great room sound, but the early reflection data can make for some weird resonating artifacts. It may be worth trying subtle changes to the room size to help alleviate any problems you hear.

Reverb is a tricky little thing. I tend to like more "stage" sound and general "ambience" in my mixes, so I tend to work with more than one reverb settings. Using one for a "stage" and one to simulate a "hall"

Using just one tends to either not be enough reverb tail for me, or too much and too "wet", a combination helps me shape the overall place the instruments are playing in more.

I dont have anything too receent with VSL to share and explain with as I'm working on a project thats mostly soudn fonts right now and it has to sound "cheesy" but soon I'll get back to the orchestral libraries and it will be nice to get back into it and share music, and examples.

[superstringcheese]

thanks for the response, king. i did another mix and this time replaced the french horns with trombones & trumpets as i suspect that part of what bothers the producer is the natural phasing of the horns.

i'm trying to keep everything a bit more "in your face" because all this has to survive under narration & heavy sound design, but because it hasn't gone to post yet some concert hall ambience might lend a little more realism. this guy doesn't know anything about music but anyone who has heard orchestral recordings has the symphonic stereo image imprinted on them i think. that, & he knows it's not a live orchestra - which you would think would entitle it to some leniency - but just the opposite is the case.

btw, when you (& others) say to pull down around 5K & bump up the ultra lows/highs, by how much are you generally talking about? i don't have "professional" mixing gear & my monitors are a couple of $250 Event TR8's. the way i have things set up sounds very good to me, but when i play it downstairs on the home stereo (which everything sounds good on) it sounds like a bag of ass.

i just can't seem to find that particular range in the Air Force 1 demo that makes it so lush! and that reverb... [:)]


i deleted the piece this message refers to (for space) but here's a couple more that i'm sure are just as messy.

http://www.cheesewater.addr.com/music/gen_battle_8_alt_mix_1e.mp3

http://www.cheesewater.addr.com/music/vikings_thm_3a_mix_2a.mp3

thanks again for your help.

[KingIdiot]

sorry, been kinda busy here

I listened again. It sounds as if you've over EQ'd

I did a quick (VERY VERY quick (like enough time to listen to it 2-3 times and fiddle while listening) tweak on the old file since I still had it here.

It only pulls a slight bit (1-2db) at 5k with a fairly wide Q, and boosts some air and sparkle at 8-9k and up, the ultra lows I boosted are just really "lows" but I call them ultras because its jsut habit mostly around 80hz (3db, but thats just me) with a medium Q, I dont like riding too high since at 150-200 it starts to mud on me if there's enough bass instruments.

Then I threw it through a little bit of SoundStage to add some overall "room". Since there's already reverb tail adding more might make it weird, or maybe not... dunno.


its at

http://www.musicyouneed.com/ssc/Vikings_thm_1b_alt_mix_ALT.mp3


you can hear where this doesn't work for everythign which is why I dont usually do this to a whole mix. The strings get weird in a place or two, and I would still roll a bit off the high end in the brass to make it more "round", atleast for the reverb, then mix in the bite for presence.

Again its just personal taste tho, but it doesn't feel like its jumping out at me as much as it did before.

[superstringcheese]

hey thanks for your time / expertise on that. i does sound a bit better, & i can tell, in order for you to really do the job right, it would have to be mixed from scratch. also, i simply don't trust the monitors i'm working with here.

thanks again for all the help.

[ttpmusic]

Sorry to enter this disscussion so late in the stage.

I like your compositions...they sound great!!

You obviously have sorted the reverb prob out by now.....but I thought I'd add some thoughts to your "tricky" producer problem.
From my experience most 'non musical' people tend to be able to 'smell' midi based orchestral compositions no matter how good the sounds. They tend to react by often commenting on one particular sound....but they don't really know whats going on except they know it's not real. Often their comments are directed (or rather) missdirected at the first thing they hear. In this case the Brass....which I actually think sounds good.

What I believe they are reacting to is the perfection we composers tend to fall into while working with midi.

I have found that not using any quantising makes a big difference. Let your natural performance remain in the programming.

Also grab some sounds from a different library. I don't know why....but it seems to create a more realistic sound....even with just a couple of different sound sources.......

I also set up some tempo templates that shift slightly with the needs of the piece. even if i don't really require a tempo change. One or two clicks can help breath life into the whole thing. Even though people generally can't hear it.

You may already do these things.....but i thought i'd just add what little i can

[SyQuEsT]

Maybe you can add links on brass sustain with alternate staccatos or 0.3 sec. Giga does it great directly without adding a new midi track ... so you have more realistic brasses ...

It's a great trick for "non legato" instruments ..

Mathieu Laprise
Sonomax inc.

[YarBorg]

I am no mixing expert but one of the easiest tools I have used (mentioned earlier in this thread) is Cakewalk Sound Stage in their FX3 plugin pack. You can basically design a room and instrument\mic placement. It's an under admonished tool. I combine that with a good layout of a typical orchestra like the one at this link.

The instrument arrangement may not sound exactly like you want but it gives you a good idea of distance from the center of the stage etc. Also, once you get horns sounding like you want just save the preset and apply it to any other compositions so you get a feeling of consitency in the tracks. BTW - The arragements sound great. Keep up the good work.

[Koya]

Hello

ttpmusic mencioned something called "tempo templates". It is something that I've heard before but I don't really know what it is. So could someone explain to me?

Also I always wanted to know how to you change the tempo of a track, in order to have two or more different tempos on the same track.

btw: I'm using Sonar 3.0 as my sequencer

I hope I made my questions clear and I to heard from all on you.

Thank You

[GTBannah]

@Koya said:

Hello

ttpmusic mencioned something called "tempo templates". It is something that I've heard before but I don't really know what it is. So could someone explain to me?

Also I always wanted to know how to you change the tempo of a track, in order to have two or more different tempos on the same track.

btw: I'm using Sonar 3.0 as my sequencer

I hope I made my questions clear and I to heard from all on you.

Thank You

INSERT/NEW TEMPO Then type the tempo in;
OR
VIEW/TEMPO, a window opens with a graph and a horizontal line. You can draw the tempo curve there.

[KingIdiot]

what I've always wanted is an individual tempo track for EACH MIDI channel

one that would allow you to tap the tempo in for each track.

it would make step written stuff a little better [:)]

tho the real problem would be if you had to move part of the cue out, or adjust it to hit a marker point for video...

in which case things would get out of hand (of course you could make sure to use a master tempo for composing and adjustments, and then go back and ADD each tracks individual tempo track......hmmmm cooooool....)

[GTBannah]

Individual tempo tracks?! A conductor's nightmare ....

I hope I can see someone use that to see the benefits.

[DG]

@GTBannah said:

Individual tempo tracks?! A conductor's nightmare ....

No, just the normal state of affairs... [:D]