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  • Stereo image problems

    First off, I'm very impressed by most of the demos and am considering getting this library soon.
    However I found that the trombone and trumpet ensemble performance demos lacked a precise stereo image. It's like the ensemble was sort of spread across the entire stereo field. The attack part of the sound seemed to come from the right, while the sustains were from the center. Did anyone else hear this? Is this just in the ensembles? The solo demos didn't have this.

    Anthony Lombardi

  • Hello? Is anyone going to answer me or at least make a comment? [:(]

  • its possibly just the reverb used.

    I'm not hearing much of an issue when I use them, but then again I tend to collapse the stereo field somewhat.

    The instruments are sampled "center" for the most part. Its pretty impossible to keep brass instruments or directional instruments in the same "place", which is why I tend to collapse the field. Its actually better that they sampled "center" because of this reason.

  • Instruments such as Tympani, French Horns will sound quite directional at lower volumes i.e. pp, mp. When sampled/played in a Hall the Tymps and Brass will widen their stereo image substantially filling out the Entire Stage when played louder at f,ff.

    This was apparent in the original Vitous Hall Samples. Also in regards to the S1 I am finding that it colours the sound a little. also when the sound should widen at higher levels the S1 will hold it back where it shouldn't be. A good reverb will compensate for this effect. The VSL stereo brass are virtually phase free and not overly stereoized and take well to panning.

  • Thanks for the replies guys!
    This is an interesting phenomenon I haven't really heard about. Do either of you know what causes this widening of the image? How come I never notice it in recordings I listen to?
    Also, King what exactly do you mean by "collapsing" the field? How do you go about doing this? I suppose you can make a stereo file into mono, but I don't really know how this is usually done.

    Anthony Lombardi

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    @tonylombardi said:

    Thanks for the replies guys!
    This is an interesting phenomenon I haven't really heard about. Do either of you know what causes this widening of the image? How come I never notice it in recordings I listen to?
    Also, King what exactly do you mean by "collapsing" the field? How do you go about doing this? I suppose you can make a stereo file into mono, but I don't really know how this is usually done.

    Anthony Lombardi


    To collapse a stereo signal, one can simply pan the individual channels towards each other (this is easily possible in GigaStudio's DSP Station, although some sampler engines cannot do this internally and must rely on simple panning or post processing).

    One very good post-processing option is the Waves S-1, which can not only expand or collapse a stereo signal, but which can also pan a stereo signal using psychoacoustic tricks. I know that Dietz, who mixes most of Herb's demos, is a fan of S-1, and this could actually be a reason you're hearing some width anomalies. The downside of S-1 is that the monitoring position needs to be a classic triangle plot or the soundstage can drift. I personally don't consider it too much a weakness--and in any case, you won't run into this phenomenon just collapsing signals with S-1.

    It sounds like you may want to embark on some basic audio engineering studies. All of this stuff is very nuts and bolts engineering knowhow which was formerly handled by studio personnel, but these days, a MIDI-based composer needs it under his belt to compete. Most project budgets aren't sufficient to afford a dedicated mix engineer, and even VSL can't mix itself (although it comes very close at times).

    Concerning the size of a signal in the soundstage vs. amplitude:

    Sounds spread in the stereo field with volume increases due to room saturation. As reflective patterns build up, they become omnidirectional and exist in a very even level throughout the entire room. So a sound which may be a pinpoint at pianissimo can easily spread across an entire soundstage at fortissimo, especially if recorded with any distance.

    That said, the VSL instruments, if anything, are the most precisely imaged samples I've heard to date. Probably any smearing of image you're experiencing is a deliberate mix choice. The Silent Stage is an extremely well-diffused room as one can hear in the "whip" and "hammer" percussion instruments. There is sufficient size, absorption, and very aggressive diffusion built into that room so that even the loudest dynamics are far from the saturation point. Back to the Hammer percussion instrument, that is a very loud source signal, and it is still nowhere close to saturating the room even in its peak frequency range. Ditto with huge instruments like the gigantic bass drum. Even at fortissimo, the room is not "speaking" louder than the source, which is a testament to both the room's design and the VSL engineers' critical distance computations. The room has a very desirable impulse response, which is one reason the VSL instruments take reverb so remarkably well and are so flexible. The recordings are far from dead, yet the reflective content is sufficiently balanced to the direct signal so that the room imprint can be shaped into just about any size virtual soundstage you desire. The mic plots and the room itself are part of a very sophisticated overall sound design. I have heard some negative comments about the recording methodologies of VSL, but have never seen any of these actually prove its point. In fact, they ring false and seem to be based in speculation rather than hands-on experience. I was an early adopter of VSL, and have produced a great deal of material with it, and it mixes easier and more flexibly than any library I've used to date. Any engineer who heard these signals coming into his control room would be on cloud nine. They are exquisite. Nothing like it really exists at this point in time.

    Not to say there are no other great libraries out there. I believe there are many wonderful choices. But it is safe to say that VSL changed the landscape, and that Herb and his team have succeeded in raising the bar.

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    @Bruce Richardson said:


    [...] I know that Dietz, who mixes most of Herb's demos, is a fan of S-1, and this could actually be a reason you're hearing some width anomalies. [...]


    Not that I could add anything useful to Bruce's lucid explanations - just for the sake of completeness: I hardly ever used the S1 to widen the stereo-image when mixing our demos or productions, just as kind of a "glorified", smart pan-pot.

    "Fan" is maybe too strong therefore - better call me an happy user :-]

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • I want to second what Bruce had to say. VSL is recorded with "space" and "air" which lends a natural 3 dimensionality to the sound. At the same time, the decay properties of the room are short enough to give great flexibility in post production. Reverb and room simulation can be very successfully applied as needed to suit the requirements of the mix. In other words, VSL is capable of working equally well for intimate chamber music or large concert hall symphonic works so long as your room simulation tools are up to the job. This is due to the acoustic neutrality built into the room by carefully chosen room dimensions; wall, floor, and ceiling construction choices; and sonic treatment (see photos on VSL site). Such care results in a room whose natural "modes" are evenly spaced and well damped. Frequency response comb-filtering peaks and dips are kept to an absolute minimum so there are few, if any, troublesome resonances that can interfere with the application of room simulation later on. Designing a room like this takes great skill because it's a balancing act of smooth response, maximum required bandwidth, and well chosen decay properties. I believe this approach will become even more advantageous as time goes on because of the proliferation of impulse technology which will increasingly result in utterly convincing room simulation.

    Tom

  • Thanks for the lengthy explanation Bruce!
    I guess I didn't quite realize how sophisticated the Silent Stage was. It seems the VSL teem has really ventured into uncharted territory here. And the Waves S-1 is definitely a product I'll look into.

    Anthony Lombardi